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Yesterday a friend approached me with an interesting dilemma. He was born and raised Christian. His wife, from the other side of the world, is an atheist. The couple just gave birth to a baby. My friend has expressed interest in raising his child into the Christian faith. His wife, obviously, isn’t too thrilled.
What advice do you guys have? What would you do? Has anyone seen this situation before? How did it unfold? My friend will be reading this (and maybe participating in the conversation). Let’s take this seriously and offer our honest opinions.
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I’m atheist, and my ex is Christian. We have 2 children. They go to church with dad on Sundays and I talk to them about what they’ve learned. My oldest (10) knows that I am an atheist. (My youngest is 5 and loves church for the crafts and the playground).
I’ve had discussions with atheist friends who don’t agree with my stance that I am ok with letting my kids go to church, but luckily, they’re my kids! /:)
I discuss with them, when the time is appropriate, what they learn at church like I do about what they learn at school.
I was raised Christian and grew into an atheist as an adult. I know people who’ve also gone the other way (atheist to Christian)…it’s really not that big of an issue…but to Christians it is the cornerstone of life.
I guess my thought is, if it’s important to dad and not to mom, but mom and dad love each other, they’ll come up with a solution.
I do have a question for dad, though: Why would you want to raise your child to be anything specific? You’ve got some years to figure it all out (unless you’re catholic and fear for your child’s unbaptised soul or whatever). The key to children is honesty. Tell them what you believe, and let mom tell them what she believes. If you are both “good” people, your child will be so lucky to see that people can be so without having to agree on everything.
Also, another question; do you fear for your wife’s soul? If so, what is your relationship like? If not, then you won’t fear for the kiddo’s either.
What does “born a Christian” mean?
Sounds to me like he never had the choice to make his own decisions or to find his own path. Now that he’s all growed up — he’s apparently followed his mind & heart and chose a love that breaks down the barrier of closed thought.
Congrats to your friend and best of luck to them.
Congrats to your friend and the new little one!
I’d recommend the book Parenting Beyond Belief. There’s a whole section on mixed marriages.
From my own experience as a product of a Lutheran and an atheist, I’d say that they will be able to look back in about 30 years and count themselves successful if they’ve got either a contemplative christian or a contemplative atheist.
Regardless, I don’t think your friend can go wrong if their family approach to religion includes some honest inquiry and discussion.
Just be blunt with the child, saying, “Mommy, like many other people in the world, believes [this]. And Daddy, like many other people in the world, believes [this]. And there are several people who believe in many different things, too.” And let the child decide on his/her own. S/he’ll probably change his/her mind several times before s/he’s an adult, and will have a very worldly, nonjudgmental view of life and the people s/he shares it with.
I hope any child would receive a realistic picture of religions in the past and today, not “raised” as anything.
I can’t give any suggestions based on experience in regards to raising the children one way or the other but my husband (who’s an atheist but raised as a Lutheran) and I have had this conversation. I probably will be bringing the kids with me to church on Sundays and he will tell them what he believes and when they get old enough they will have a
to make. We won’t force them one way or the other when that time comes.
Of course at this point in time it’s all hypothetical (I want to get through college before having any children and my husband is supporting me on this).
I will be praying for your friend first of all…what a tough situation. He knows about the order in which God ordained things to be which makes him head of that household. I’m going to be getting into this shortly for Robert on another post, but letting God’s love shine through your friend to his wife is important. Hopefully, she will come to know the Lord through him…Your friend should know being raised a Christian the importance of instilling those values into the child, and should. I was married to a non-believer….it was hard. In fact I did most of my Bible reading in the bathroom….but I always made it clear that the boys would know Christ. Him being a non-believer left that responsibility to me. It goes back again to who the greater love in your life is, and which values are most important for eternitys sake.
An honest opinion…GG, that’s the scariest thing I’ve ever read.
Stacy, after visiting your blog, I think we’re about even…;)
GG, I sincerely hope you will find the time to contribute to something on our blog. We have been looking for different perspectives there, and no one seems to want to talk unless we write something ridiculously offensive.>:p
I’m sorry it needs to be that way…..I’ll try to pop over sometime…
Instilling a creed of guilt & fear juxtaposed with the threat of eternal fire and damnation if one dares to think for themselves…is mental abuse. I am sad for children who have no other choice but to believe what they are force-fed. Not a far cry from Jerry Springer and the white supremacists. Believe in Jesus, whatever, but indoctrinating children is just sad to me.
III Timothy 6:13
‘Verily I say unto thee, show your passive aggressiveness with a big goofy smiley face :d .”
sheesh… that’s a tough one. If you are one of “those” kinds of Christians that require baptism otherwise you go to hell (or limbo or whatever torment unbaptised babies are supposed to endure) then you and your spouse should probably have discussed this prior to bringing a baby into your family. But hindsight is 20/20, right.
I too would recommend Parenting Beyond Belief. But the parts about mixed marriages almost always rely on some kind of compromise situation. I think Gods Gal was little more subtle but to put it pretty bluntly there will likely come a time when you will have to decide where your greater love is. Jesus or your wife and family.#:-s
I don’t have any experience to help. I know where people with experience in those situations talk about it and share their wisdom, though - here or here.
@stacy:
It’s scary. But it is pretty standard if you take hell-belief seriously. LOTS of scary things become rational actions if hell-belief is thought to be true.
Like many people on here have said, just be honest about the differing beliefs. The child should be aware of all viewpoints and allowed to make his or her own choice-it shouldn’t be limited to just Christianity and/or atheism. And the child should be taught to understand that people have many differing beliefs and that that is okay.
I was in this situation for several years.
Unfortunately when people plan to marry thinking “We can handle our differences in belief/nonbelief” they don’t think about how it will be when each of them want to raise their children with their own belief/nonbelief and not their spouse’s. At least I never thought about it.
So he is going to take his children to church where they will learn that their mother is going to hell…yeah right. I think she will love that.
My husband said it was fine for me to take our children to church with me since he liked having quiet Sunday mornings at home by himself. (He didn’t go to church, being an atheist) He’s an involved Dad but he enjoyed having that time to himself.
They were both baptised upon their profession of faith at church. However I guess they weren’t any more into church than me: when I quit church two years ago I asked my children if they wanted to keep going but they said no. So now none of us go.
My advice is - the Christian needs to trust God about this and be respectful of his spouse’s wishes. Insisting on his way would not be at all Christlike. If he had listened to God and not chosen to get yoked to an unbeliever he wouldn’t have to deal with this now. Now he has to face the consequences of going against God’s Word…
But his wife also chose to marry a Christian probably not thinking about child raising issues. Hopefully they can work something out. That’s what marriage is all about…negotiation and compromise. (But I can’t imagine her wanting her kids taught she’s going to hell)
Oh PU>>>>LEEEASE people…:-t
Is that really the ONLY thing you x-christians can talk about is sending people to hell? If that is the only thing you know and dwell on about God I can see why you wouldn’t want to come to Him. We’ve been over it so many times I’m not even going there….but my kids along with millions of others are not scared for life, ready for two-north men because we taught them the ENTIRE truth about who God is. They, nor do we live in fear and trepedation of every day, and that is NOT the God we serve. In fact His perfect love casts out ALL fear. I am just having a hard time today with these warped views about who He is…it crazy making! @-)
I’ve thought about this a lot today. My heart has been pretty heavy for you all too (the couple and baby)
You both have to have open communication on this. I’m assuming there is a lot of love and understanding between you so I’m sure with that is a great deal of respect. Compromise is on of the hardest things to reach when both sides believe they are right (don’t we know that here?!) But you are no longer just the “two of you” anymore. Your precious little one now awaits to live out the decision that faces you both. It is my experience that when a child realizes there is conflict and disagreement among their parents, that is when things can go down hill. Although there is concern for the different stands on God - to me there is even more in how you both display that to your child.
I have very good friends where one is a believer and one is not. It is very stressful for the believing one. They each brought there own child into the marriage. The 2 children have since become Christians. The unbelieving parent is fine with that. Doesn’t understand it - but saw it unfold before his eyes and witnessed the excitement in the boys surrounding their decision. And, YES, it was indeed their decisions.
I’m having a hard time even guessing what I would do in this situation. I wished you had already had a plan. It’s hard to mix oil and water, like Helen eluded to above.
Bill, please keep us informed on this?
GG: You are obviously quite ignorant of the god you “serve” if you don’t worry about non-believers going to hell. Your god DOES send folks like me to hell unless I submit sometime between now and my dying breath. You seem very very very reliant on the whole forgiveness thing, and I”m sure it has helped you move forward in life.
I have no idea what that means.
BTW…very Christlike of you to group us as “you x-christians” (do we not get a capital C b/c we’re “ex”?) and classify “our” ideas as “warped.” I’m definitely going to worship god this weekend because of your words.:))
…sorry to get off topic on this post. The only thing I wanted to say about this issue is what I initially posted.
Stacy, I feel sorry for you. You yourself along with others have classified yourselves, as x-christians (ex-Christians), i was simply repeating what you have already said. I am very, very reliant on my God, period. He alone has helped me move forward in life….
What I was trying to say in the part you quoted is that somehow all that seems to be dwelt upon is the fact that people will go to hell. it was brought up that children hearing that their parents are going to Hell is not a good idea. i was pointing out that there are many who didn’t take it the way it was presented here, and are now strong followers of Christ. To me your ideas are warped, as they don’t acknowledge who God truly is. He is a loving forgiving God, not one that is up there with a big stick that gains pleasure from lost souls. You shouldn’t ever do or not do anything because of my words or anyone elses by the way, only because you understand who God really is and what worship is all about….,
If there is no significant worry about hell, then raise the kid to be a good person and don’t introduce the theology delusions until they’re at least a teenager. In short, no child should be “raised a Christian.”
For what it’s worth, I do not consider myself an x-Christian because I don’t consider myself ever being a Christian in the first place. I cannot recall a time when I believed.
? Seriously, what ?
When I speak of hell-belief, I am focusing on the impact on decision-making by real flesh and blood people. People can actually hurt other people. Being fictional, neither God nor Hell can actually hurt anyone and therefore are not worrisome.
I take my child to the doctor to get vaccines. I do this in full knowledge that the shot is going to hurt for a bit - I am deliberately causing them pain. The reason I do this is to prevent much larger and worse outcomes later. Similarly, for people who believe in hell, causing a small amount of pain to prevent much larger and worse outcomes later is absolutely a rational choice. Relative to an eternity of torture, any amount of finite pain is analogous to a vaccine.
That is why I bring up hell-belief.
Sorry, GG, but I am still trying to figure out “two-north men” means. And crazy making.
BTW, do you know a guy named David Gowen?
As someone who’s a recent deconvert from Christianity, my advice is for both parents to be informed and open about what they believe and why, and not make it into a battleground for their child’s mind/soul. You didn’t say whether your friend is any particular denomination; would the Unitarian Universalists be an option for this family? They would seem to be a good halfway point for the couple you mentioned, and might be worth checking out.
Keep in mind, though, that even if both parents were of the same faith, there’s no guarantee their children would follow.
Thank you Ben….. I understand what your saying….in my belief in God and study of His word, I believe Hell to be a very real thing. I can’t share my belief in God without sharing all of it….not as a scare tactic, that’s not how I’ve ever presented it to my children. My husband and I had children and made the choice to follow Him in our home. While it did my heart good to peek in every once in awhile and see them reading their Bibles, it was never rammed down their throat. We lived the life, they did stray, found out it wasn’t all it was cracked up to be and came back on their own accord, not because of any threats of abandonment or anger from us. it was something they came to themselves. Being “raised a Christian” can be taken wrong. I agree with you there Ben. What I think is meant, is that there was a decision made to have a home which believed in God and put in to practice His principles…living them out on a daily basis, and i see nothing wrong with that. I don’t see God or Hell as fictional, so I believe there will be consequences….thank you tho for explaining, I understand where you’re coming from better….like I’ve told you before, there are times when Irish-Swede in me takes hold, and I react instead of reflect…for that I am sorry.;)
That is ridiculous and immature… IMO[-x
Sorry, it was the first thing that came to my mind. 8-|
First up i remind everyone of my previous comments regarding hell - I don’t tow any Christian ‘party’ line on it. In fact i think a number of major churches ( RC, Baptist, eg) don’t give their flock a very good idea of ‘hell’ at all.
Having said that… why would it matter? If you raise your kid a christian (as opposed to a Catholic etc). Wouldn’t it be better to let them grow up and freely choose when they are old enough to fully understand their choice and it’s consequences?
What? Like we do with every other aspect of their lives you mean??
Just how would you feel?? If you truly believed in Heaven and hell (however you personally see it) and then your child dies before they ‘accept’ God into their lives?
Not a nice thought to go through the rest of your life thinking you’ve been separated from them for eternity?
I know the thought of your child dying is a negative one no matter which way you look at it but if you believe then it would be so much worse thinking they had not gone into God’s care because you ‘waited’.
Far more worse for them i believe than it would for any atheist to think that their child’s mind had been ‘warped’ for their earthly life ( which many here clearly show not to be the case) into behaving as a - God Forbid - Chrisitan! Shock! Horror!
Be True with your kids!
If you are going to err (be human) do it on the side of ‘caution’
Make sense?
:)>-
Well, first, I have to say the things that I rarely get to say. GG and I understood each other a little better - amazing !
On this, I fully agree with LWBUT. Amazing again !
Now on to the more normal disagreements:
There is no side of caution. A humorous and articulate demonstration of that can be found here. There are an infinite number of hypothetical realities where atheism is the side of ‘caution’ and there are an infinite number of realities where theism is the side of ‘caution.’
Bringing the idea of heaven / hell onto the Christian side of the equation does NOT give the Christian parent any right to dominate the child’s upbringing.
Ben, why then is NOT bringing heaven/hell into the equation dominating the child as well? I mean, as a Christian, I chose for myself, to live a Christian life….our home is a Christian home…our kids knew both sides of the equation, and when they reached maturity, experimented with several things before choosing God for themselves…they were taught to think and explore for themselves…and chose Christ. There were several years that our oldest did not…as well as our middle child, we have never loved them any less, and still welcome them with open arms…but they had the choice. Of course we’re thrilled that they came back to Christ, but our love for them won’t change regardless….
How is excluding Christ, not dominating?
Lovewillbringustogether: “If you raise your kid a christian (as opposed to a Catholic etc)…”
As a former Catholic who had to go through this time and time again with Protestants before I left the church, I still read this and shudder… Catholics *are* Christians too. What else would they be? I apologize if I’ve misinterpreted your statement.
Re-read what I said. LWBUT seemed to be saying that since heaven and hell represented larger potential consequences, Christian ideas should be given dominance so as to err on the side of ‘caution.’ That is what I am disputing.
Sorry to join this so late, I’ve only skimmed the comments so forgive me if this has been said before.
A parent’s religious views (or lack of them) should never be used to make a child choose between either parent. I think that parents should always be united in the eyes of a child. Contradicting the message that one parent gives only confuses the child. If in doubt avoid the topic all together until the parents have had time to discuss it and come to an agreement.
That said I don’t think it fair to the child to give them opposing views of religion and allow them to choose until they are mature enough to decide for themselves. The message then needs to be neutral if the parents cannot agree.
I’m fortunate that The Hildy has pretty similar views about most things to me (or is it the other way around?) and where we disagree it isn’t on anything vitally important.
Now, if I were to suddenly (and miraculously) convert to a religion she wouldn’t want me to try to indoctrinate our children into this religion. That is what we’re talking about here: indoctrination.
Is it right to indoctrinate a child into a religion? The child has no choice and the parents have a responsibility to ensure that the child is cared for physically, mentally and emotionally. Clearly neither parent has a problem with the other parent’s views and doesn’t see them as destructive (as some atheists and some Christians do). Does the atheist wife attend church and church functions with her Christian husband? Treating the church effectively as a social club? If so then there isn’t a problem.
You say that she has a problem with indoctrinating the child into the religion so I imagine that there is an issue that needs resolving. Who will be the primary carer? Who will stay at home and look after the baby when the other goes off to work? Typically this would be the mother. She would have more input into the child’s development that the father purely on time spent with the baby. Her views then will have more impact than his.
Given this the child needs to be raised as an atheist until such time as he or she is able to make an informed decision.
That’s my reasoned argument. Of course if the father is the primary care giver then raise baby as a Christian.
Wow!!!
I have been so busy on the other thread I completely missed the conversation over here.
A child of an atheist and Christian parents.
Seems to me that the difficulty of such a situation correlate directly with the ’stridency’ of each parent involved.
I go at this question from a personal view:
I consider myself an atheistic-agnostic. I am not going to define that in this diatribe.
I cannot see the wisdom in indoctrinating any child into any faith. Before I decided to marry or procreate with some one of a theistic nature we’d have to have a serious conversation about that.
If you are passionate about your faith you can’t be dispassionate about teaching it and be objective about different faiths.
I think it was the skeptics dictionary that defined cult as the ‘the church down the street from yours’.
This is a very telling statement. Though as GG has said on many occasions she doesn’t have a ‘religion’ she has a ‘relationship’. But I don’t think she would want to avail herself or her small children to any other church that might teach something different than what she believes. She’s made up her mind as she is free to do.
While I think the world GG as a friend, I wouldn’t enter into a relationship that would produce a child with someone who possesses the same kind of conviction as she (GG).
I think GG would agree with me when I say it would be like mixing oil and water.
My point is that the atheist and Christian in question MUST have, at some point, found some sort of common ground to begin their relationship.
Now that they have a child they’ll have to again.
How that is going to work I have NO idea.
A theist has his or her faith, convinced of its truth by means of revelation and/or evidence (flimsy at it might seem to me).
As a free-thinker I look at all religions with dispassion. My view is that there is or might be, something to be learned from all of them.
In the end the child has to make up it’s own mind.
But not before the teenage years as a minimum!
On this i agree with Mr. Dawkins:
We don’t call a child republican or democratic child. they aren’t old enough to really understand what such a label entails. Neither are they old enough to understand what it means to be ‘Christian’ or ‘Atheist’.
My wife and I agreed a long time to raise our children to think for themselves and to ask questions.
We don’t hide them from religion nor do we indoctrinate them…
Hopefully it will work out!
Robert
One thing that no one’s mentioned here about this couple that I think might put a damper on the issue a bit is where the husband says his wife is from. There’s a cultural issue involved that is not strictly religious which needs to be taken into account. I have no clue where she’s from but it might be telling.
Cheers all,
I usually only read and never post. It’s time to throw in my two cents. My wife and I have been married for 8 years. I am an atheist and she is a Christian. I was a Christian for about 20 years and came to my nonbelief as an adult after several years of marriage. We have two boys, 8 years, and 9 months. Our oldest boy attends church with my in-laws as my wife does not attend church regularly. I don’t mind if our son attends church. I did most of my life. I have told our son what my beliefs are and have informed him that it is OK to be a believer or a nonbeliever, however, a person should question everything. Seek out the truth. Examine the evidence and make an informed decision. Other than that, I don’t tell him what to think, only to think critically. My wife of course was not happy to learn of my nonbelief, however, our marriage is strong and I believe that it will stand the test of time.
@Joseph R…
Perfect time to break the ice. Thank you for your response. In MY opinion, that’s the best approach.
Cheers :)>-
Wow, Joseph R., except for kids, you sound just like me. I’ve been married for 8 years. My wife is a Christian and I turned atheist after being a Christian all my life, several years into our marriage. We’ve talked about kids, but so far have none.
My typical response is that the kids should read the Bible for themselves, the whole Bible, and no “interpretations” offered until they’ve seen what’s in it for themselves. If, after that, and after getting an education in school about the current state of scientific explorations into the areas of cosmogeny, biology, etc., they still believe that Jesus is god, then I will support their decision.
One thing I will not do is candy-coat the scriptures so that they’ll believe based on one version of their faith and then later pull the old switcheroo on them by showing them the “bad” stuff only after they’re locked in by habit and training.
Ben,
Please stop starting to make a little sense or i’m going to have to re-evaluate my initial opinion of you and the extra wokload it will imbue upon me makes me nervous! :d
My comments were intended to look from a ‘most negative’ case - the child dying ‘early’ and the resultant distress to the parent having faith in things like heaven and hell over and above that caused by premature death of a child to any parent.
I intended to supply what i hoped was a powerful argument for ‘caution’ (Thank you Ben - did you actually provide one arguement that there is a 50/50 case in an infinte number of Universes for Faith being ‘right’?)
Seriously - I got your attempted point with caution but once again you are wrong - there are quite clearly two sides to caution - each one hypothetically being able to be justified or rationalised as well as the other to any individual. The two ‘rationales’ being equal and in some sense ‘opposite’ does NOT cancel either one out - agree?
Once again though we agree (that’s starting to worry me a little now) bringing the idea of heaven and hell to the christian side of the arguement does NOT give the christian parent the right to dominate the arguement.
Being the christian parent gives HIM the ‘right’ to bring his child up as a christian until it can decide for itself not to be, should that be it’s wish!
Heaven and hell has a very little part to play in the matter. I have already stated why i think it may have A part. All other things being ‘equal’.
i.e. Atheist’s parents rights to the christian’s ones.
I am NOT saying one has any more validity than the other - just that the consequences to one Parent may turn out to be greater than the other due to their individual beliefs.
As for indoctirnations - we indoctrinate our children even when we are careful not to - they naturally pick up on everyone of our many many errors and faults as humans. Stop trying to make out like religious indoctrination is such a huge crime against humanity and ‘free thinking’
There is no such thing as ‘free thinking’ we all are subject to dogma and irrational behaviours/lines of thought.
Some just insist on closing their eyes to the way they do it.:o
God’s Gal, some children are upset by the concept of hell, especially if they’re taught one of their parents is going there.
It doesn’t work for us that hell is in the package deal.
Sara - apology accepted - if you accept mine?
I am sure you have every reason to be offended by being grouped in by some people as little c christians or non-christians and I apologise if you felt that from my comment - it was very general and unspecific - acknowledged.
Let me clarify a little (sometimes i say things that i know what i mean but no-one else ever gets the way it was intended!)
The Christian vs Catholic etc comment was meant to recognise the very real differences between the various schisms of christianity and associated ‘cults’ ( like the Jonestown massacre mob and the Waco whacko thing - people who use the term christian to describe themselves and their beliefs) and the ACTUAL teachings and practices of Jesus Christ, revealed to mankind not only by the Bible! (but certainly that is the most predominant way, along with priestly and church oriented ‘indoctrination’ or more detestably - dogma - (’just because i say that is the way the bible is suppossed to be interpreted that’s why!’), that most Christians get to hear His teachings today.
I favour a personal understanding of the Man Jesus Christ Philosophy personally, and respect His apparent belief that He was the Son of Man more than any church devoted one (the kind of ‘I always pray in the church on Sunday’ kind of thing.
My comment was also intended to emphasise a difference i felt it was important to delineate to atheists between religious indoctrination of faith in the Church for the churches sake, more than of teaching your child good Christian values or scaring the bejeebers out of them with visions of Hell (even if we are inclined to do similar things with them as in ‘ don’t talk to strange men who want to talk to you and offer you sweeties’ purely for their own ‘protection’)
What really gets me though is this prediliction here for completely missing the MAIN POINT which in my case was the
No-one who has nitpicked my comments made the slightest reference or acknowledgement of what was the CRUX of my arguement here!!!
Geez people this is supposed to be about advice YOU’d give to the poor guy with the dilemma - How about considering HIM in all this??
And making it less about what me or others believe?
LWBUT, yes, I absolutely agree that no Christian would want to risk their child going to hell and this is a BIG issue.
I wasn’t online much yesterday and didn’t see this comment.
However, am I not right that a Christian must honor his/her marriage relationship and trust God with some of these difficult issues rather than being so desperate to get his/her children ’saved’ that he/she will do things harmful to the marriage relationship?
No, not even close. There’s no way to get that out of the argument.
I don’t understand what you’re trying to say here. What I’m trying to say is that trying for ‘caution’ is impossible. It is only used as a fallacious reason to pretend you believe - Pascal’s Wager.
If I believed in a God who sent people to eternal hell for not believing it would change my life immensely. It would be very depressing to live in such a reality, with a cruel and vindictive tyrant in charge.
If ‘accepting’ God meant that one must think well of him in order to avoid hell…I really don’t know what I would do. We would HAVE to find a way to stop him and create a better state of affairs.
The short answer is that I can’t think both (an eternal hell exists and people are sent there) and (God is good). The two are wholly contradictory.
I’ve been thinking about this more and I don’t get it. If you think this is what happens to people who don’t ‘accept’ God into their lives, how do you marry an atheist in the first place ?
Ben - what did i say about making sense?? Please stop - it’s making my head hurt!
(Yes that WAS a joke - i do use them from time to time)
Forgive me, but i don’t see what YOU are trying to say here… (about caution)
You are human! (Ok, i have to admit that is an assumption on my part but i’m going to stick with it until evidence proves me wrong)
I therefore REFUSE to believe you are never, ever ‘cautious’ about something. If you can be - so can the kids parents - deal?
Please undersand this about me - i play ‘Devil’s Advocate’ a LOT! I try to see things from the other person’s point of view and express opinions accordingly. I don’t personally ‘worry’ about Heaven OR Hell although i can talk and joke about both.
Arguing for a Christian’s right to raise his child a Christian for the sake of the child’s soul and the ’selfishness’ of their own personal peace of mind does not men I PERSONALLY hold with such an viewpoint merely that i am capable of SEEING it and accepting why someone else would possibly do that - Follow?
As for your statements about God and the difficulty you have reconciling the many aspects people see of ‘His’ Nature (versus their own nature’s) I truly am sorry you have chosen to make it so difficult for yourself. But the last thing you want is my pity, i feel certain of that, at least.
you last question is a good one - perhaps you should ask Bill Cecchini for an explanation - or any of the people here who are in a similar position to his friend? Anyone?
Maybe because sometimes Love truly IS Blind - like the rest of us.
Just to get things back to our ‘usual’ state… You have GOT to be kidding me - right?
caution - is ONLY used as a (false) reason to PRETEND to ‘believe’????
No one here is going to swallow that kind of garbage surely?
Helen, you very well maybe right and probably are in some sense at least
I was not arguing against such a position, merely stating a reason why someone might want to raise their Child into Christianity from an early age.
I would respectfully suggest vis-a-vis your ‘hypo’ - that if raising a kid into the Christian Church from an early age is going to do ‘harmful’ things to the relationship it would be advisable to seriously reconsider the relationship before bigger messes are introduced. Agree?
Preferably before childbirth?
Certainly Marriage Vows to love, honour and obey are serious ’sacred’ vows and should be held by both parties to a similar degree. I have a feeling though ( Christians please feel free correct any error on my part) that a child’s immortal soul is something worth putting up a fight for - particularly one’s own Child?
I bow to anyone’s greater religious knowledge than my (limited) one as to which, if any, are ‘the more sacred’ obligations.
Maybe we should just ban ‘mixed’ marriages until we resolve all the issues raised?
( TIC! )
Yech, I know of no mature intelligent Christian pairing that ever used that verse. I abhor it and I know most post-feminist women (which are a a decent mix of Christian and non-Christian) that would even consider it. There are so many other ways of asking without the implied property. I’ve never been to a marriage that has used that, even Catholic ones.
I know in my marriage we talked about it as a covenantal relationship between myself, my husband and our community (with the implied “God” in the community part for those who believed). We left out the “who gives this woman” symbolism and instead asked whether the community would be willing to support us when we need it.
Of course I use caution. What you outlined for the parents, though, was not caution.
Then my disagreement is with the position, not with you.
Wholeheartedly.
I waffle on this some. Sometimes I’m convinced others can choose what they believe, sometimes I’m not convinced. I cannot choose to believe or disbelieve - it is not a choice. You could hold a gun to my head and tell me you will shoot me unless I believe 2+2=5. I would do my best to convince you I believed it, I would try and pretend to believe it, but I would not believe it. Pascal’s wager implies a similar process for belief in God (with a carrot more than a stick, of course.)
A great commentor on my blog was in this exact situation and had some really profound advice based on his experience. Honestly, it’s some of the best advice I’ve ever heard. I posted it here. Definitely worth reading.
Ben: please don’t stop making sense - ok?
I much prefer (love) agreement to misunderstanding.
To give you a better idea of where I am from - try my Blog and the latest parts one and two. I feel sure you will have some useful comment to add!
Jenn F That post you gave was truly inspirational - i hope Bill passes it on or the original person the post was about reads it for themself.
As a ‘balance’ - i am about 99% positive someone somewhere can show a total reversal of outcome in their similar case to the totally positive one you showed us, resulting in a torn apart marriage/ fatherless/motherless kids and perhaps even much worse.
Life has a way of providing extreme cases in opposition to the other.
By all means Hope and work for a positive outcome….!:)>-
LWBUT, yes, I do agree that mixed-faith couples should consider child-raising issues before they get married. In my experience people don’t tend to think that far ahead to how deeply they will care when their spouse doesn’t want them to raise the children in their faith/lack thereof.
Dunno about useful, but I definitely had a comment. I was inconsistent and used benjdm over there, though. Early senility.
Ben - you get that too huh?
Wait until they’re teenagers to introduce theology?
If a person believes in God as expressed by the Christian faith, then theoretically that is the most important thing in life - bar none - no comparison to anything else. To withhold the ability to have an intimate relationship with the creator of the universe would be a catastrophic mistake on the part of a Christian parent and completely contradictory to what Jesus said in the Bible about “keeping the little ones from me.”
(Disclaimer - all children 8 and under stop reading right now…
)
Take Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, and Tooth Fairy. Those are all made up by parents/society. Eventually kids realize they are false. Nobody has to go around teaching them that they are false “for their own good”… unless you’re that a-hole on the playground
If one parent is an athiest, let the kid believe in God. If it’s false, then they’ll figure it out on their own. You don’t even have to lay out a case for there not being God. I’ve never seen anyone hurt by belief in the existence of God, just hurt by other people, or by their own foolish actions that were warned about in the Bible.
per previous comment about “mental abuse” c’mon dude… :((
Matt - you make a lot of sense to me ( former atheist)
I think some worry though that teaching a child about the Bible somehow ‘warps’ the mind and restricts ‘intelligent’ thinking. And in some ways in some kids - it actually does.
What we need to understand are that children’s minds are very ‘malleable’ and can and do become ‘fixed’ based upon what and how they learn and/or are ‘taught’.
Some here have been through a tough time in church from an early age and have somehow ‘pulled through’ and now see the world more ‘clearly’ for them - or so they believe.
Some see the many evils church teachings could be held accountable for in the secular world.
There is FEAR here and sometimes quite justifiably so.
Love conquers fear - this was Jesus’ True Message He revealed to His followers. Not all who follow Him are fearless however, much fear and superstition and ignorance remains - in BOTH camps - religion and atheism.
Hopefully this site will allow some to see things from another’s perspective?
As for mental ‘abuse’ you have heard and understand i am sure - the term ‘Killing with Kindness’???:-?