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Hemant posted this list. For all the FriendlyAtheist.com subscribers, please forgive the double post.
- You Can Do Terrible Things in the Name of Either One
- Both Sides Really Do Believe What They’re Saying
- In Everyday Life, You’re Not That Different
- There Are Good People on Both Sides
- Your Point of View is Legitimately Offensive to Them
- We Tend to Exaggerate About the Other Guy
- We Tend to Exaggerate About Ourselves, Too
- Focusing on Negative Examples Makes You Stupid
- Both Sides Have Brought Good to the Table
- You’ll Never Harass the Other Side Out of Existence
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I don’t think we ever truly agree…I think we agree to disagree…LOL I’d have to agree with most everything you have listed here…at least from my experience with this blog. I think it’s good tho that most people here have enough respect for eachother to have some really good discussions.
Humanity is humanity regardless and I’ve made some good friends here on both sides.
Interesting list.
Also, these statements probably aren’t limited to Christians and atheists only. Almost any two groups that disagree with each othere could take a mature attitude and come to similar conclusions.
Apart from the first point I’d agree entirely. I don’t think that you can do terrible things in the name of not believing in something. I don’t believe in The Flying Spaghetti Monster and I’m not going to harm anyone because of that non-belief.
The rest is all true.
Wow Bill, I agree with everything on your list.
An atheist like me in total agreement with a Christian?
The world stands still for a moment.
On your last point I know that I can’t harass Christians out of existence. The Romans already tried that.
Just some thoughts.
I agree with most of it. However, the fifth point, “Your point of view is legitimately offensive to them”, I do not agree. Is is too much to ask to agree-to-disagree, like Gods Gal states above. I may not agree with the religious view points of any religious person, let alone xtians, however, if I went through life being offended by other people’s views, then life would probably be much more stressful for me. On a side note, my wife is a xtian, and I am not, but we live a happy, fulfilled, and agree-to-disagree life together.
It is too much to “agree to disagree”, IMO, on some points.
I cannot agree to disagree that gay people are “intrinsically disordered”. I believe that is an obscenely offensive “point of view”. It’s no less offensive to me than saying black people are intrinsically disordered.
I cannot agree to disagree with the notion that anyone who finds fault with a person or finds their words offensive or hateful is driven by Satan.
AAMOF, I cannot agree to disagree with any “point of view” that is ultimately dehumanizing. I don’t tolerate denying people their autonomy, their humanity, and their basic human rights.
For too long in this country, people have been allowed to get away with saying and doing hideously disgusting things to other people under the guise of religious belief. I no longer tolerate it. I cannot respect someone who believes gay people are lesser or disordered or are “sinning” merely because of whom they love. That would be tantamount to respecting someone who believes blacks or Jews or hispanics are something lesser or disordered or sinful merely because of their ethnicity or physical traits or whathaveyou.
@Toni, I think that deserves a topic of its very own.
@Toni
Bill listed 10 things he thinks christians and atheists can agree on.
Which of these 10 do items do you disagree with?
@Ed
I disagree with one and three and I’d add a caveat to 7 — it’s just as stupid to focus exclusively on the positive and refuse to acknowledge the negative.
@hoverFrog
8-|
Yeah, whatever.
@Toni:
3) “In Everyday Life, You’re Not That Different”
The qualifier here is how different is “that different”.
I interpret “everyday” life as the day to day personal interactions between atheist and christian.
Most of the people I worked with believed in God. I don’t see where this had any effect on the quality of their worked. I didn’t see where they worked more, or less, effectively with me.
While I see differences in how the Christians I have know view the world, I don’t see that in their daily interactions they treat non-Christian any differently.
I have one friend who is gay. I don’t see where my Christians friends treat him any differently when we hang out together.
I have met atheist bigots as well as Christian bigots.
In conversations about politics and religion there are some irreconcilable differences. I haven’t seen where this has affected how me and my Christian friends live and work together.
In general I find Christians to be a very caring group of people. In a crisis, fire and flood the Chrisitian groups seem to be among the first to respond and help.
@Toni
7)We Tend to Exaggerate About Ourselves, Too
Are you saying that Christians exaggerate their claims any more than atheist do?
Focusing on Negative Examples Makes You Stupid
“it’s just as stupid to focus exclusively on the positive and refuse to acknowledge the negative.”
I agree. Focusing only on either the negative or the positive is wrong. This won’t give a person a complete and accurate picture. It’s just a trick people use when they argue.
When I want to learn more about another person’s view point I find it more effective to emphasis the positive aspects of their view.
@Toni
1) You Can Do Terrible Things in the Name of Either One
I think leaders of the atheist countries of Russia and China have persecuted people because of their religious faith.
I am too lazy to do a lot of research to support my opinion, I’ll just provide the article in the link below:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism
“Communist states have defined fealty to the state in such a way that religion can be proscribed or surpressed. Because the religious faithful typically give their loyalty to a power above their state, such states have commonly treated this as a basis for supression or prohibition of the faith. For example, the state would claim Jews were considered beholden to the State of Israel, Catholics to the Vatican City, Buddhists in Tibet to the Dalai Lama, and thereby attach the charge of sedition to certain religions.”
Ed –
I meant 8, not 7, sorry. I think not taking a long, hard, detached, honest look at something is foolish no matter which way you play it.
You’ve apparently experienced different behaviors from Christian than I. I also hold people to a pretty high standard. Words like honor and integrity still mean something to me.
As for beingthat different, sure, you’re right if your world exists of white, middle class, suburban Americans. And I’ve always asserted, if you look through my posts, that good and bad behavior occur at the same rates in any group no matter what their religion, politics, ethnicity, etc.
However, Christians and atheists (and people like me who are neither) have fundamentally different worldviews. We are indeed that different. Our thought processes are totally different. How we see others, how we encounter them, is totally different. The superficial things may appear to be the same, but the core of who we are, the stuff that really, truly, deeply matters, is miles apart.
As for tyrranical regimes, their atheism didn’t drive them. Their ideology, yes, personal corruption, yes, but a belief in a divine being, a sense that they were divinely ordained by God, did not. Big difference.
@Toni
Thanks for your clarification. You are right our experiences in life do obviously shaped our views.
“I also hold people to a pretty high standard.”
That probably means you also hold yourself to a pretty high standard as well. Not necessarily a bad thing.
#4 would be where I disagree. In the Bible, it says that nobody is good - no, not one.
I’m not saying we should believe the worst in people, but labeling anyone as “good” leads to a false sense of security if I’m the one being labeled as “good”, or can create some serious opportunities for disappointment (or being plain wrong) for the people doing the labeling.
“Good” to me would be following God’s word… which I don’t most of the time. I sincerely believe every follower of Christ walking the planet experiences the same. If we could be good on our own, then we wouldn’t need Jesus.
Now, if you don’t believe in God (in the same manner Christians do), then you have a relative morality. What is it relative to? Depends on the person. An athiest could view people as good because that is more of a scale.
Christ followers do not have a scale where we look to see if it balances out or tips in our favor. If we rely on a scale like that, then we are guaranteed to lose.
Reminds me of one of the Bible verses that accompany the 12 step program I’m in - “If you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall.”
I know what you meant by that Bill, but newer Christians can easily fall into a trap with the good/not good. Just a word of warning to them…
yeah, the “you”s in paragraph 3 were more not directed toward Bill. Meant to write “a person” and “they” :”>