New to FriendlyChristian.com? Check out the FAQ page to learn about the site. Wondering who the heck I am? The My Story page is a great place to start. Thanks for stopping by!
Click here to subscribe via RSS.
Click here to have posts delivered by email.
This message will automatically disappear after your 3rd visit.
I love the conversations we have on this site. I love the intensity. I love the passion. If you think about it, it’s pretty miraculous what we accomplish here: we take one of the most personal and sensitive subjects, a belief/non-belief in a holy [tag]God[/tag], and we discuss it…openly listening to both sides of the story. For the most part, we keep it clean and agree to disagree. Nevertheless, our beliefs/lack of beliefs are challenged.
I came across a comment the other day that I feel the need to repost. I wasn’t going to do this in fear of starting an “e-war,” but I figured, “hey, it’s posted once already, so apparently the commenter wasn’t too concerned about people reading their true feelings.”
I really ought to know better than to bother with [tag]Christians[/tag]. What a bunch of self-satisfied, self-absorbed, hypocritical little dumbasses you are.
I don’t get offended very easily. I don’t have sensitive feelings. I do, though, have the ability to recognize an ignorant stereotypical generalization when one comes my way. I also received an email stating that this commenter was “done with me and people of my ilk” (however this commenter has just left yet another friendly comment so apparently can’t get enough of my ilk).
Listen - I disagree with a lot of what is said on this site (and in many other [tag]religious [/tag]atmospheres). I have read all the comments leading up to this commenter’s ridiculous rant and I obviously have my opinions…which, quite honestly, don’t matter. What matters is how I react. I can choose to get frustrated and act like an idiot or I can be a man, agree to disagree, and move on.
I’ve always wondered what it would be like if there were such thing as “White History Month.” In my opinion, there would be riots. Yet it’s ok that we have “Black History Month.” I’m fine with that - honestly. Tell me though, what would happen if I were to say:
I really ought to know better than to bother with Atheists. What a bunch of self-satisfied, self-absorbed, hell-bound little dumbasses you are.
Come on now. Every [tag]Atheist [/tag]would blog about me…and rightfully so. Just like if I were to start a petition for White History Month. Sometimes it’s just better to take the high road and keep our kiddie-comments/ideas to ourselves.
During the first week of FC, I emailed[tag] Hemant Mehta[/tag] at FriendlyAtheist.com and asked him how he handles mean comments. He told me that he likes to bring attention to them, write about them, and offer his opinion. Well Hemant, I did it. We’ll see what happens!
For the record, I don’t mind blocking people from this site. I really hope it doesn’t come to that. Play nice, as just about all of you do.
Popularity: 7% [?]
Loading ...
Well, Bill, perhaps, then, Christians such as “Godsgal” shouldn’t make assertive statements about the desires of someone else’s heart as if they can know.
Only God knows.
That was as or more offensive to me than what I wrote was to you.
But, see, to Godsgal, because I don’t necessarily see Christ as she does, it doesn’t matter if she offends me because, in her mind, she is right and certain and absolutely convinced that her personal interpretation of Christ and his teachings (which aren’t shared by all Christians) are the only ones that matter.
Jews are wrong. Catholics are wrong. Any number of non-Catholic Christian denominations are wrong. Muslims are wrong. Obviously, non-Abrahamic deity worshipping religions are wrong, and so on and so on and so on.
So, because she automatically, out of the gate, believes that everyone who doesn’t see God EXACTLY as she sees him is wrong, she ASSUMES she knows the desires of everyone’s hearts. If a person doens’t desire to see Christ AS SHE SEES him, then they don’t desire to know Christ.
How dare she? How can ANYONE make that claim? How can you not see how appallingly offensive and insensitive and just plain out of line making such a claim is? Are you so stuck in your little Christianland bubble that you think you can know these things about other people and claim them publicly and not get called on it…?
Also, the passive-aggressive, manipulative “hey, we’re not perfect, we’re sinners, too” response to a very legitimate question concerning contradictory behavior on the part of a large number of Christians is pretty damned annoying.
No one claimed that all Christians had to be perfect. No one (besides Godsgal, who only recognizes Christians who believe exactly as she does) put Christians in a box, yet that’s what we were now categorized as doing by even bringing up the question. So now we’ve been put on the defensive — we have to watch every criticism we make, or every question we ask because, OMIGOD, we might be putting Christians in a box.
It’s this unexamined, thoughtless, superficial, closed-minded brand of Christianity that has permeated our culture that keeps me away from recognizing Christ as anything other than perhaps a prophet or merely a political upstart who made some very good points.
Christ died on the cross for this — so that Christians can make their slap-happy way through the world, leaving a trail of bruised and battered souls in their wake, without ever having to be held responsible for their actions.
Godsgal’s own assertion is that she, as a Christian, is forgiven for any sins she commits, is “saved” (from what…? Personal responsibility…? Consequences of her actions…?) because she says she’s a “believer” (in what…? Her vision of Christ…? Her personal interpretation of God’s word…?), while “non-believers” (again, non-believing exactly what — that Godsgal’s take on God is the One True Interpretation?) will sin and go to hell as a result of their sin.
This is a religion? Slap a bumper sticker on your car, throw a cross around your neck, photoshop a tacky cloudjesus pic on your blog, and you’re now saved from any personal responsibility or consequences for your actions?
Oh, and, yeah, you also get to openly insult other people’s belief systems but are immune from ever being criticized for your own.
C’mon!
This is a religion…? For who, two year olds??
@Bill
I will agree with you that the writer in question did go a little too far in that statement.
There are many of us here who come to discuss, to debate, to try to find common ground.
At times I feel my passions beginning to boil over as I am sure they did for Toni. I have endeavored to contain them and not let them erupt into ad hominem attack.
The only way our soceity has a chance of surviving is if all people can find a common set of principles that sacrosanct.
Principles that transcend all religion and politics. It’s my belief that the fore-fathers of the United States gave us the first attempt to do just that with the Bill of Rights.
It’s been more than 200 years since those very wise men, led by Mr. Jefferson, authored that brilliant list.
My view is that it needs to be expanded and made more relevant for the 21st Century. I think the ‘Sage of Monticello’ would agree with me as well.
We must find common ground for the sake of the future of our planet. While some theists will argue that this life is just a sort of waiting room for the next more important life, we do still have an obligation to the future to see that there actually is a future.
In order to facilitate this we have to allow for an open and honest market place of ideas.
Come, let us reason together!
R
I’ve just read an even stronger worded comment. Clearly passions have been inflamed. Hardly surprising given the strength of people’s beliefs. However if I wanted to read comments attacking people with differently held views then there are plenty of other places to go.
My experience of blogging about Atheism (or about religion) prior to coming here was very negative. Most conversations broke down quickly into attacks on the other party. This is something that I’ve been as guilty of as anyone else. It doesn’t further the debate at all though. An entrenched position seldom does.
Elsewhere on FC I’ve also read comments where one party has used the phrase “for arguments sake”. This is a wonderful phrase and I would encourage anyone who is feeling frustrated to use it so that you can move on. It does not give ground on your own position while allowing the other parties to continue.
It allows us to understand the other party’s view which is really all were here for isn’t it?
If I wanted to go and have a dig at someone there are plenty of other places to go. Less friendly places.
I’d hate to see anyone blocked from FC. We all have our beliefs and blocking people who are passionate about there own just leaves you with a group of people who either don’t care to debate or who all hold the same opinion. Clearly though you should draw the line at personal attacks.
Argue against the argument and not the person.
My advice to anyone who finds their passions inflamed to the point where they want to say something that they may regret is just to walk away. Take a day to think about it or a night to mull it over. Think about the ways that you could have interpreted what was said and take the best way.
As a man I know full well that if there is a good way and a bad way to interpret a comment then I meant the good way. :d
I hope that this doesn’t come across as lecturing.
@Bill
I do have to take issue with this:
This a very bad analogy.
For most of the history of people of African descent in this country, they were considered property.
There are those among us who think to this day that a darker shade of skin implies a lesser ability and or intelligence.
My own ancestry is of half Italian (my paternal grandparents came from Tuscany Italy in 1920) and my maternal grandparents are of Quebecois descent.
So I guess I would be considered white.
So white folk in this country are not a monolith of culture, they compromise all manner of different European traditions. Each of them has some sort of cultural identity they revere and celebrate.
So when “Black History” month comes around I don’t see it as some sort of slight against white-ness that there isn’t a White History month. What would we celebrate anyway? Bad dancing, atrocious music, bland tasteless food?
I have been to Boston’s North End during the Feast of St Anthony. Italians are subset of the white-skinned culture, not the whole. And dammit if we don’t and to the diversity of this great land!
My home town in western Massachusetts has a Polish festival because a large percentage of the population is Polish immigrants. Never been a big fan of Polish food, but I’ll eat some kielbasa!
So there are plenty of cultural celebrations for ALL manner of white people.
Let the people of African descent celebrate their own unique, vibrant and at times tragic heritage! The same goes for Hispanic people!
Robert
Toni- I love you anyway, and we can agree to disagree. Godsgal is one of the most awesome people I have gotten to know, and she is just very direct in how she believes, but I just read your comment and you are very direct in how you believe.
Hover- you are my favorite frog!
Although my Christianty may make me strange to anyone, I am glad that we can have some mutual respect between us.
Robert-love you man! you are one of my favorite reads…I have African blood in my family, and I have no issue with what Bill said..maybe like Hover commented it is just how we read it.
:)>-:)>-:)>-
@Robert…
True, my analogy is most likely poor.
I guess the point I was trying to make is that sometimes it seems like Atheists can fire away at Christians all they want and there’s nothing we can do about it.
We’re Christians, after all. We’re supposed to love, forgive, and put our tails between our legs, right?
Darla, I’m the only frog you know aren’t I? /:)
@Bill, I thought it was the other way around? Toni didn’t get wound up on her own.
Alright I should stop that. This isn’t about scoring points off the other side. Toni’s comment in this entry has some very valid points but I think that we should all just agree to draw a line under the whole thing and move on. I’d hope that’s what everyone will do with me the next time I lose my temper and spout off.
You think arguing about religion is bad ? Try politics. People change their minds sometimes about religion…
Trying to generalize about Christians or atheists is an exercise in futility. I know too many Christians to lump them together. When I criticize, I try and be specific.
All that said, though: if you make the statement yourself or indicate your approval by calling it Holy Scripture, I don’t see that much difference.
Psalm 14:1
The fool says in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good.
@Bill
What started his whole fusillade was an intense disagreement between Toni and GG.
While I agree with much of the accusations Toni makes her ad hominem on GG was beyond the spirit we try to maintain here.
If we were to go outside this forum I would argue that each side fire broadsides at the other.
Atheists had been taking a battering for years before Mr. Dawkins, Mr. Harris and Mr. Dennett published the works that caused O’Reilly and Coulter to bemoan the new militant atheism ‘infesting’ the culture.
But let’s face it here, atheists, agnostics and free-thinkers ARE indeed a minority in this country, albeit a growing one. Most people were fine to have us quiet and accepting of our place amongst the fringe. So perhaps we could have been forgiven a for exhibiting a small inferiority complex.
That’s changed now. Our ranks are growing. The arguments we are making and the questions we’re asking are not new nor are they going to go away. You can rest assured of that. It’s just that more people are beginning to question whether a literal interpretation of any scripture is necessary for salvation. Old and forgotten questions of the intent and motivation of biblical authorship are being scrutinized, and legitimately and rightly so. These concerns are valid and must be addressed.
Bill, I do believe Christians have a right and a duty to defend their faith. In the end though, the defenses you have may not be adequate to save a literalistic interpretation from the withering attacks to come.
Robert
Hover- you are not the only frog i know, however you are the only magnificient frog i know^:)^
Hello friends, I think there is a misunderstanding about me stating what I believe…not pushing it down anyone elses throat, or telling other believers or non-believers that this is what they have to believe. These are MY convictions and beliefs. God works in everyones life differently and in different ways, so to say I am putting beleivers OR non-believers in a box is a rediculous claim. I have come to have a great deal of respect for Hover, Robert, and yes Ben even you…;) and have learned a great deal from these people. I also have a right Toni, to speak what I believe without being belittled…..and am open to any discussion. Bill, awesome point in your last comment….see what happens when we don’t?@-)
When you assert as fact that I do not desire to know Christ, you have indeed put me in a box. You’ve actually done worse. You’ve taken the place of God, claimed to have knowledge that only he can have, and judged me based on it.
And, yes. That’s ridiculous. With an “i”.
Also, I find it very odd that, while in the previous thread, you were very cut and dried and absolutist about your beliefs, and actually implied that any experience of God that didn’t fall into your personal understanding/perception of him amounted to creating a fictional, personally convenient, self-serving god, you now state that God works in everyone’s life differently and in different ways.
Which is it — you’re flip-flopping and back-paddling pretty darned quick here.
Is there one understanding of God which we must all submit to (as you indicated in the previous thread), or can God be perceived differently by individuals and can he work in ways that don’t fall into this understanding you personally have of God?
And if it’s the latter, how does that justify the claim you made that I don’t desire to see God or Christ or whatever?
For someone who keeps telling us how strong your beliefs are, you aren’t particularly clear when it comes to explaining them, nor do you appear particularly unwavering in how you hold them.
:-\”
Just can’t let up on the insults can ya Toni? I asked you several times if you were a Christian and got nothing but insults. I would love to know your position yet, you can seem to get past your hostility to even state what that is. I am in no way God, but I do work for Him and make no apologies for stating my beliefs that I have gleaned from the Bible. They are my beliefs and I push them on no one…. That’s rediculous…
Toni, everyone else has read what was written and understands my heart and who I represent….So until you get over yourself, all I have to say to you is get thee behind me.
Secure the masts!
Batten down the hatches!
We are in for a bumpy ride!
R
Ridiculous. It’s spelled with an “i” in the first syllable.
That’s not an insult, it’s a fact. May I suggest http://www.dictionary.com.
For someone who continues to take exception to the “box” issue, why do you keep insisting on my handing you a box, complete with label, that you can conveniently put me in.
My position is more than clear if you would start to look, er, outside the boxes you claim you eschew.
I have not insulted you here. I have asked you to explain the statements you’ve made here and on the previous thread and try to iron out the contradictions for me.
I’ve also asked you to justify your assertion that I do not desire to see Christ several times now, and you’ve refused to even acknowledge that this is what you have said even thought the comment is still on the other thread for all to see.
No one has asked you to apologize for your beliefs. They’ve asked you to explain them and to justify your belief that you know for a fact that I do not desire to see Christ.
This is simple stuff.
No insults, just very direct, emotionless questions.
If you really believe you’re working for God, do you honestly think it’s a good idea to state that someone you have never met, don’t know, have interacted with for a mere handful of posts on an internet message board, doesn’t desire to see Christ? Does your job title in the work-for-God organization come complete with the capacity to instantly discern the deepest desires of everyone else’s hearts?
Again, that’s a real question, along with the others, no insults, implied or otherwise.
Robert…you crack me up… Rides over as far as I’m concerned…so how’s life?
:d
I still think, regardless of what you wrote earlier, you’ve experienced more of God than you realize…..:)
Oh — now I’m Satan! LOL! Ya. Okay. Now I can see what we have here.
You’re not interested in discussion. You’re only here to judge and condemn and then run away from the tough questions.
What do you believe in Toni? Who is God?
wow - I used to think this was a safe place.
We obviously have a new visitor.
A little hostility, eh?
For all who call FC your home - I have read through everything and can I just say I have the utmost respect for you! You amaze me! I am honored to call you friends - you’re a classy bunch… Well done in this discussion and on the other hostile thread. It was cool seeing how you came to bat for one another. We have come a long way - let’s keep it going…:)>-
No, sweetie. The onus is still on you to justify your claim that you can discern my heart (and now you claim you’re working for God when you do this…oy!), and to answer the questions I’ve posed.
You don’t get to once again divert the attention away from what you stated in black and white.
You need to ante up here. As I would think anyone who has now openly stated several times how strong and firm they are in their beliefs (although that part seems to be a bit hazy…).
Uh, I don’t need to do anything, until you state your beliefs, we have nothing more to talk about…seems like the pot is calling the kettle black…shocker
Also, for someone who a) works for God, and b) has claimed certain personal knowledge of my deepest desires regarding my relationship with God, why even ask me who I think God is or what I believe?
Someone who works for God and has the capacity to see inside my heart of hearts would already know the answer, wouldn’t they…?
So which is it — do you know my heart, my desires, or don’t you?
Again, lots of contradictory stuff here, and, again, a complete unwillingness to provide clarification of the statements you made.
So you’re standing by your claim that I don’t desire to see Christ and that you work for God and can see this in my heart?
Okay.
Gonna be a fun day t’other side of this life when you have to justify that one to the God you claim you believe in…heh.
GG- hey sometimes the Lord does give us the discernment to know the condition of a heart. Our God is supernatural, and is all knowing…and you have not stepped over the line.
Toni-Gg did not say you were Satan, however what drives you at her so intensely..she does have a right to her opinion, and you are pushing for things to get ugly..why? You are totally accepted here too, but you are not going to be accepted if you are always in attack mode. we just discuss here, and if you are attacking her as an advocate of our enemy than I will stand with her and tell you the same. Being a Christian is not a wimpy thing, and there is no verse that says i should put my tail between my legs and run…it says the opposite…stand firm. Ephesians 6-we are not going to run from insults.but this is supposed to be a friendly place.
Oh, quite to the contrary my dear…if you really care to get clarification read over the last several months of blogs. I’m never unwilling to clarify….you just warp and twist so badly what would the point be.
When you share with us what your beliefs are, we’ll contiue…CYA! :)>-
@GG
Well you know how it goes when you have four kids (or do you?).
WOOT follows:
Life is a roller coaster…I’m just trying to keep my food down! =))
The wife and I managed to getaway for a romantic dinner on Saturday night at a lovely Italian Trattoria in Worcester.
The Wild Mushroom Risotto and Veal Scallopine were almost as good as my own!
The vino was also fabulous!
Click here & here if you are interested in seeing the progeny!
R
I’m not pushing for things to get ugly. I’m being direct, is all. I’m not the one inserting little flirty asides and winky-dinks to the boys in the pathetic attempts to get them to back me up and create a pile-on here.
Godsgal made a highly offensive statement about what she knows for a fact is in my heart.
I’ve asked her to clarify — to justify — this statement.
She repeatedly refuses to do this, and instead keeps jacking up the hostile atmosphere (all while pretending she isn’t by getting cute with the fellas on the side) in the hopes that she can keep the attention on me and the negativity directed my way.
She’s intimated that I am at least acting for Satan when she uses the phrase “get thee behind me”. Again, a hugely serious judgment on her part, especially when she has, practically in the same breath, claimed she works for God.
She claims to be about discussion, but will only attack. She claims to think it’s bad to put people in boxes, but keeps insisting I give her a box she can put me in.
All I’m asking for is clarification and justification of her own comments.
For some reason she can’t do it.
~shrugs~
Whatever.
And there she goes…lol!
Once more unto the breach…
@Toni
I’m trying to fully catch myself up on where this dispute arose.
Toni, can you point to the post where GG said this? Seriously, I want to try to help.
For my part, I’m trying to see from what side of the fence you are coming from. Could you enlighten us, just for the purposes of clarity, where you are coming from?
I am not trying to pile on you.
Trust me I know how much the whole ‘relationship with Jesus’ thing can really infuriate a non-believer like me…
…But we know next to nothing about you, Toni.
Tell us about Toni!
Robert
Bill, forgive me here if i am out of line - but this is just silly - hardly friendly. I’d love to stay and help clarify what seems to already be clear positions but it looks like it would be futile.
I love a good debate - we have learned to do this respectfully and without attacking here. But it has defaulted and honestly…it’s repulsive.
Toni- I am not going anywhere, just have some other things to do as well..I keep checking.
If we have misinterpreted you please accept my apology. But really please do tell us about you. What is it you believe, or not believe? I can’t seem to find the discussion that upset you so much, and I would like to know you better.
Comment #25 on the Saw thread.
Not to mention that I was already pretty annoyed by the insinuation that either I or you or anyone else had put Christians in a box or on a pedestal or had expectations of perfection for all Christians because a legitmate point had been made about seemingly contradictory values in at least part of the Christian community — that really came across as a sort of “hands off the Christians” attitude to me.
Who am I? Seeker, believer in a divine creator, someone who has been horribly hurt by the Catholic Church and is very leary of all dogma and groupthink and fundamentalism and certaintude and absolutism. Sometimes I’m ready to believe that Christ may have been divine, but I usually end up running into a wall with that one — the wall here being glaringly obvious.
@Toni
Toni, you and I have much in common!
Please stay with us here.
In my own past I have been round and round over this question.
The answer I have become comfortable with is this: What does it matter?
If the teachings are honorable and wise…what does it matter whether Jesus was real and/or mythical and/or divine?
Now many here take huge issue with that position. But, I don’t let that bother me.
As a fallen away Catholic I know the damage that Catholicism can cause.
Please hang in there and keep seeking!
Robert
Toni- thank you for sharing a little about yourself.
I will go back and check that thread..but for the record, I am a Christian, and I believe that Jesus is divine, and I personally know HIM. I would love to introduce you to HIM when ever you feel that you want that.
We really are friendly here, and some times as we are all human our friendliness is not as obvious as it could be.
I know when someone claims that I really do believe a God exists - when they claim to know my own opinions better than I do - it spins me up to no end.
Ok, finally, a clue with what may have set you off…..your right…I don’t know whether or not you have a desire to see Him for who He really is….correct and I apologize. Let me state it another way. From what you were writing on the blog…I assumed that was the case and that was wrong…sorry…
I really don’t want to assume anything about you which is why I asked what you believed in the first place….
I’ve already answered the “in box” thing…it’s not me, I don’t believe it so I’ll leave that alone.
I have always, male or female used the cute winky-dinks..male or female and will continue to do so…It’s not for any purpose (another insinuated insult) other than I have come over the last few months to call these people friends and they’re cute!
Gods Gal said:
See this is why I have come to know and love GG so much!
She can find the godly even in a heathen like me!
R
See????? That’s the point I’m trying to make…I just haven’t done a very good job I guess….There are believers in Christ as their Lord and Savior, and there are non-beleivers…..there is no middle ground…that’s not putting in a box, just fact. Is that wrong? It doesn’t mean one human is better than the other which is why is all started in the first place. Only, that in my belief system, I have surrendered my life to a God I believe to be the only true living God….my saying that that is our only difference are for THOSE reasons…Robert, did that make sense to you?
Gods Gal said:
GG I am fully cognizant of your beliefs… even though I don’t share them I understand from you are coming from.
It is through understanding each others views that we can arrive at a form of detente.
R
GG glad you came back…I understand…and you know I can get pretty lost sometimes.
Toni- we are all friends on here, and hope you relax a little and have some fun with us, as well as debate beliefs.
I am also known to be very annoying on here and handing everyone coffee..do you like coffee??~o) here have some…and if you don’t want it just give it to Robert and tell him it is Verona.
Darla said:
Robert has a new favorite at the Holy Land (read Starbucks)….it’s called Ubora blend…
It’s right up there with sex as far as I am concerned.
Robert likey!!!
R
now that made me really want to go make coffee..mmmmmmmmmmmmm
I am going to try to get some of that! I think darla will likey too!:d
Wow Robert….you ever think of taking up a career in advertising????
Darla count me in sweet!~o)
have coffee…and very happy that we are now becoming the internet cafe! got to love a little java with the days events!
GG I always count you in!
~o)~o)~o)java java java makes me so happy anyone else want some..Bill?? consider yourselves all blessed that you can not hear me sing or dance..yes do the java dance!
Gods Gal said:
Now that would be truly selling my soul to Satan wouldn’t it?
R
Reminds me of my favorite Garfield quip on Java
I love you coffee…
you make me glow…
my nerves don’t like you…
but what do they know!
R
=))I used to have that on a poster at work!! hahahahahaha
Howdy Mr. Frog,
“Argue against the argument and not the person.”
very well said.
Jason-you and Mr. Frog probably smelled coffee..didn’t you?
And yes Mr Frog that was a highly intelligent comment on argueing the comment and not the person..how do you do it?;)
sorry frog I misquoted you..but I meant the same..
Has anyone seen the Dilbert where one of the office workers switches decaf for regular and in the last frame everyone is laying around the halls with one person mumbling….must….find…..antidote….
That’s my whole life
*shrugs*
In the time it’s taken me to get home it seems I’ve missed all the fireworks. Ho hum. Actually I’m quite glad. I do so hate confrontation. :-\”
So sorry you were on the receiving end of some nasty comments. My $0.02 is that you’re doing a great job, and I’m really enjoying keeping up with your site!
Hover the beauty about missing the fireworks on line is that it is there to read and read again if one chooses. I did see that Dilbert where they switched the coffee..LOL except when they do it to me. Especially church coffee…I always ask where the caffiene is…or if I should bring my own..thought about changing thiers and not telling anyone..oh well, I get in enough trouble..maybe i will just confess it, because I really want to do it!:d
Bill- do all churches have decaf coffee, or just mine..my question then would be..whats the point?
Hey, my little emoticon was supposed to be the whistling guy, i hate it when I do that, let’s see if this works, but it’s less funny.
:-\”
doh!
Darla….we have a full blown espresso bar in the church oasis, AND out out front…there is no lack of caffiene, and I have never seen anyone sleeping in church..tee hee..
Skep: we know your a happy whistling person…not a head scratcher….;)
Thats it! I have got to move out of PA and go to a state that mixes caffiene and church…maybe thats why so many are so still :d
we do have a couple mega churches in the area with cafes…but not mine :(but that is okay I just drink more before i go!;)
I can only speak for one atheist, myself,
Taking part on this wonderful blog Bill created has made me realize of much I have in common with Christian.
I now see that when a Christian says they are praying for my soul they do so out caring. They want me to join them in heaven when we die. I use to take it as a personal judgment against me. Now I see it has more to do with love not hate.
We are a caring, articulate and perhaps more importantly very funny group.
Of course there are passionate arguments about what is after all a very personal question. How can you believe, or not believe, in God?
The only reason I take part in such debates is to learn more about someone who has a different world view from mine.
I have learned a lot here, even some new icons.
[-( ^:)^ %-( :p
I would again like to thank Bill for creating this site.
I can see we are going be having a lot of fun in the forum. :d
@Bill,
“I guess the point I was trying to make is that sometimes it seems like Atheists can fire away at Christians all they want and there’s nothing we can do about it.
We’re Christians, after all. We’re supposed to love, forgive, and put our tails between our legs, right?”
It is highly unlikely that the Christians posting here are going put their “tails between their legs” and run away.
After all you guys have to much ammunition. One good thunderbolt from God and us atheist are toast. :d
You know you have won an argument when the other guy has nothing left but a personal attack.
@Ed…
You’re always so complimentary. I want you to know that I always recognize it and that I truly appreciate it!!!
Always show up late and speak too soon -
What?
I KNOW my timing is crap - thank you - i only need to see my golf handicap (last known to be 22) to figure THAT out!
But for my $0.02 (cute - thanks Jenn F)
It’s this unexamined, thoughtless, superficial, closed-minded brand of Christianity that has permeated our culture that keeps me away from recognizing Christ as anything other than perhaps a prophet or merely a political upstart who made some very good points. ( Toni #1)
That’s the point I’m trying to make…I just haven’t done a very good job I guess….There are believers in Christ as their Lord and Savior, and there are non-beleivers…..there is no middle ground…that’s not putting in a box, just fact. Is that wrong? (GG # ??)
I now see that when a Christian says they are praying for my soul they do so out caring. They want me to join them in heaven when we die. I use to take it as a personal judgment against me. Now I see it has more to do with love not hate.
(Ed # 65)
re 1 and the whole Toni Versus Godzilla flare up:
I’m with Toni - being boxed in by someone living in a VERY confining place themselves gets MY particular ‘goat’ so mad he BITES me! Toni sorry to hear about your ‘introduction to Christianity’ - we share many feelings on the subject it seems, but i don’t have any negative personal ‘history’ to contend with - lucky me!
Re # ?? I Love you GG and that’s just in a coupla weeks - what are the next few years gonna do?? - scary thought!
Being as frank, honest and open and full of it as you would want me ever to be i have to say though Hun, the last feww days have not been at all ‘kind’ to you have they? - You’re friends know and want to help all they can with the trials you face outside of this blog but as one of them - i have to tell ya - things went a bit wrong in places inside you lately ( maybe longer?) We’re dealing with stuff elsewhere so i won’t go over old grounfd here but as for…There is NO middle ground in your opinion… well actually there is in mine! There MUST be if we are ever to all be ‘together’ and i believe that is the Ultimate Goal. I KNOW where you are coming from with this but here’s the deal… YOu and God on one side - those who don’t follow your beliefs on the other - two opposing partys. Who ‘gives in’ first? Who ‘gives ground’?
While each dig in getting more and more convinced their ‘end of town’ is the only way for them to be how can you ever be brought together?
By holding a big party over at my place That’s How!
ALL welcome, bring your perceptions of just what is and is not real too! i’ll provide the love and we can get to know one another better? How does that sound?
A Lot like what is happening here? well yes.. kind of… with some infrequent ‘hassle’ of which i can often be in the middle of lately but i am learning to overvcome all that.
The key is not to become trapped solely in your mind… or too much in your heart… or any other ‘one place’ inside of you… at least not the places you frequent most down while here anyways! Look with more than your eyes - hear with more than your eyes and ears (there’s no voice in this part of cyberspace - right?) FEEL with more than your Gut, or middle brain.
Do it ALL at once and grow UP! Forget the sins of your past ways. For those who are ready, and want to, there is a new way of being (the OLD way!) I hope all here would want a better way of being than the one this planet is showing us at present - nice and friendly as it has been all along of course !
#65 Ed - you see it MY way huh? Glad of that!
But there is much more to it than just ‘love’ - that’s only the ‘beginning’! we need to do/use much, much more than our hearts and our minds - SO much more.
We can do it - if we dare ask for ‘help’.
love
GG Please explain to all the nice friendly non-christians out there about Enoch?
And how he found God WAY before JC was born in Nazareth?
I know how he did it - you do too i guess - but explain to all how someone who never met or heard of the man Jesus Christ walked side by side with the One God? And was WITH Him?
And i am sure many did before the book of Moses was made known unto them.
Some might be interested!
Love
wow, did i miss something?
dunno Love, apparently in cyberspace, everyone can hear you scream.
Toni, i appreciate your frustration, however i believe GG is truely a nice person (even if we agree on practically nothing ;)) and i didn’t think it was fair to respond to a slap in the face with a knife in the guts.
i also have some inappropiate humour for y’all;
if you do not seek to claimm GG is god, best not try to crucify her on behalf of all christians…
:d
@Ed when a Christian says to me that they will pray for my soul I’m afraid that my first feeling is that I’m being insulted. What’s wrong with my soul that it needs praying for? I feel that I’m being unfairly judged with insufficient evidence.
Never mind that I don’t even believe in a soul the feeling of unfair judgment is still there. It doesn’t matter what the intention is behind that statement because my first reaction is always the same. It’s like saying “You’re too stupid to get my point so I’m not going to talk to you. Instead I’m going to wish really hard that you were smarter.”
I don’t think for a moment that this is the intent of anyone on this site when they make comments like “I’ll pray for you”, “I know your heart” or “God believes in you even if you don’t believe in Him”. Similarly it isn’t the intent to belittle anyone when I (and others) dispute scripture as being the divine word.
Not that I’m going to stop.
@hoverfrog — so true. The root of the problem is that these sorts of statments lack humility. They become about the person making them, they become about ego.
These statements also build walls, slam doors in people’s faces, they reek of superiority and certaintude, and they ultimately deny the both humanity of the person they’re aimed at and the divine in that person, IMO.
A person can just as easily genuinely and sincerely (perhaps more genuinely and sincerely) pray for another without making a big announcement or tossing it into someone’s face.
It always comes back to who does this serve? Does making such a statement serve God or does making it serve your ego?
@Toni…
I never thought of it like this before. Interesting point
As an aside I read a while ago that sick people who are prayed for and are aware of being prayed for tend to take longer to recover than people not being prayed for or having no knowledge either way. Apparently it is something to do with the stress experienced by the expectation of divine intervention. A sort of placebo effect that inhibits recovery rather than promotes it.
Now you too know some of the pointless trivia that swamps my mind.
@ LWBUT
“And how he found God WAY before JC was born in Nazareth?”
There is a little more to it than that, but most certainly more than anyone wants here.
J - i AM on your side with that one but some people cannot even begin to follow our thoughts on this - i was hoping GG would Share her wisdom on something she is rather clear on (i hope?) lol, so that all may see another side of her that better expresses her to those who don’t necesarily agree with her - was no ‘attack’ on anyone just trying to bring us all together again after my initial ego outbursts on this forum.
Ash - the ‘light’ over here in this thread makes you look SO much more atttractive , my dear
I almost feel sure i could grow to love you for yourself 
If you had any outstanding ‘issues’ from our other post would you be a sweetie and ask them in this one and i hope to be able to let you see another side of me here (or is that not an enticing visual picture??) lol
Same for anyone on any other thread i appear to be ignoring/forgotten
Hover - some wise words and an honest concise expression of your personally held feelings whenever someone ‘does’ their God in your face - well put
I have a ‘reading’ of my own (from The Field by Lynne McClements?)
That showed an experiment in one hospital where people who were prayed for after the ‘prayer’s’ being shown a picture of the person (prayee) they were praying for and having their symptoms described to them actually underwent remarkably better progress than similar patients in the ame hospital who they did not know of or pray for! ( I am unsure, but believe the prayee’s were possibly unaware that they were in receipt of such and so may have felt no ‘pressure’ of outstanding owed gratitude (debt) to the prayer’s.
Apparently our prayers (when performed in a calm, loving, ‘meditative’ kind of stateand freely offered unto God) are able, via not yet clearly understood underlying interconnected substrates to reality, to transmit to those who require ‘healing’ a positive and beneficial life force of some, as yet unknown to science, nature - even when said recipient persons remain consciously UNaware of the intent!
Isn’t modern science fascinting?
love:x
Ugh… not another “prayer study”… every study I hear about from Christians says prayer helps, and every one I hear about from Athiests says the opposite.
That’s a new one though - prayer will actually hurt you? :-\” I cut out trans-fats from my diet, so that should make up for any morning prayer.
Matt - Hi! How you going?
would i be out of line if i asked you to use a tad better ‘logic’ (oh no, here he goes again folks)
The prayer is NOT what hurts people, if you read what Hover informed us of above carefully and not just superficially so as to reinforce our own conceptual bias…
What Hover added was that the STRESS imposed upon someone by having an EXPECTATION that the prayers HAD to be answered, (even though sometimes for some
really big stuff we fear He won’t answer us or anyone else for that matter but try hard (more stress) not to let anyone know we doubt so greatly) and for them to get well as a result, delayed their ability to recover as fast as those who had no such apprehension added to the stress of their illness or Dis - ease.
Can we be a little more precise on ’cause and effect’ here - perhaps read the study ourselves and discuss the findings before we slag something off because that’s how we like to think a thing must be without knowing all relevant facts?
Or am i being a little too picky again??
I hope not - who’s for coffee??
love
Is this the study you were referring to, hoverfrog?
Here’s something similar, which I found interesting.
I think if prayer or religion are your coping mechanisms, then they can help you deal with both the physical and psychological stress of serious illness or injury. If they’re not, having people push them at you as something you ought to do in order to get better will probably cause more stress and perhaps guilt or feelings of failure.
I think there’s a terrible amount of pressure put on seriously ill people (and the parents of seriously ill children, which really makes me angry) to step up to the plate, to take control over your disease, to be a hero, etc. That pressure can take the form of the Oprah-type ‘rah-rah, you’re a hero if you survive illness’, or the religious ‘if you pray hard enough, God will grant you a miracle’ attitude.
Ultimately, both these takes on personal control over disease put a tremendous amount of pressure on already stressed and physically vulnerable people. It’s as if society sees them as failures for not surviving.
What this may do to parents of terminally ill children, I can’t imagine.
Huh — messed up the first link, I guess.
here it is — I hope,
Here’s the first link.
Ha ha, Matt. Statistics can be used to say just about anything. :d For the record I think I got the information from a Richard Dawkins book. The author’s emphasis obviously being pro-atheist.
I think that you’d be surprised on how I consider the power of prayer. Anything that encourages a positive mental attitude to recovery has been shown to have a positive effect on healing. Now this could be prayer, good vibes, belief in magic crystals, the power of hugs, or herbal teas. The result is the same.
I don’t see a miracle here just a healthy dose of placebo with the mind working to repair the body.
Of course this can work in reverse just as easily. The stress of having a prayer go unanswered may slow healing. The study showed that overall prayer had no effect to negative effect of recovery times.
I think that it was The God Delusion if anyone is interested in tracking down the source of the study.
Actually don’t worry. I’ve found it.
Benson H, Dusek JA, Sherwood JB, Lam P, Bethea CF, Carpenter W, Levitsky S, Hill PC, Clem DW Jr, Jain MK, Drumel D, Kopecky SL, Mueller PS, Marek D, Rollins S, Hibberd PL. 2006. Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: a multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer. Am. Heart J. 151:934-942.
Actually, hoverfrog, if you’ll read the study in one of the links I provided, attitude doesn’t affect recovery — either positive attitude or negative.
But attitude, religion, whathaveyou may provide coping mechanisms for people to deal with the stresses of illness.
That seems fair. Thanks for the information Toni.
I was most interested in the cancer one. My mother died of cancer 18 months ago. She’d given up on trying to survive long before and that has been a niggly annoyance ever since. Could she have lived longer if she’d tried harder or been a stronger person? Now it seems that the answer is probably not.
Thanks.
What?
someone here read what i said without getting me wrong and telling me so??
next someone will actually start to believe things i write -
OK Now I’m Scared!
Going to read two links that i trust i will find even more enlighteing than my own incredible wisdom and insights!
My Thanks and Love to Toni and Hover!
I may have more to add after reading.. who knows… it might even make some sense:
love
OH, PS. Toni - you have quite a decent mind it seems I agree with much you said on this post - I hope you have forgiven my good friend GG over what you read from her words here to you… I am sure she is feeling a little ‘misunderstood’ in some ways herself right now.
If you have anything you wish to discuss further i shall be only too glad to pay atttention to your words.
Hoping we all check our ego’s in at the door of FC?
love:x