Josh Surratt is the campus pastor of the Mount Pleasant, SC campus of Seacoast Church, the first and largest of Seacoast’s campuses. Also, he is the son of Greg Surratt, lead pastor of Seacoast Church.

Bill Cecchini: You are the son of Seacoast’s head pastor, Greg Surratt, which makes you a “pastor’s kid.” It seems like there is a very negative connotation with the title “PK.” What are your thoughts/personal experiences on that?

Josh Surratt: Opening off with the “PK” question…man, this is going to be brutal! If the negative connotation that you are referring to is the one where the pastor’s kids are always the worst kid in the church and usually end up in total rebellion, then yes, I am familiar with that. I am actually very aware of it right now as Lisa and I are embarking on our journey of parenting. Here are a couple of thoughts on why that might happen.

1. Often the lead pastor puts on a public persona while he is at church. He speaks in King James English and talks about things like holiness and righteousness as if they are something he has the corner market on. Then he comes home and either is so out of touch with reality that he can’t relate to his kids, or he turns into a completely different person than the one in the pulpit on the weekend. At some point, the child notices the inconsistencies and usually decides he\she wants nothing to do with that kind of life. Sometimes that turns into rebellion. By the way, this was not my experience. Dad has always been the same guy at home as he is on the stage. That spoke volumes to me.

2. There is a lot of pressure from the congregation on the pk. You feel like all eyes are on you all of the time. You either embrace that and start preaching by the time you are 9 or you run from it. I experienced quite a bit of this. Try doing the things that most high school kids do when your dad is the pastor of a megachurch in a relatively small community! I think that may have contributed to a season of rebellion in my life.

3. Pastors are just like everybody else. If you don’t spend time investing in your kids, they will probably have rebellion issues. The demands on a pastor are not always conducive to raising a healthy family. There is always a message that needs to be preached, a small group that wants you to stop by, someone in the hospital that needs to be visited, elders meetings, etc. If you don’t have healthy boundaries you can build a great church at the expense of your family. Fortunately for me, dad decided early on that he wasn’t going to do that. He coached my basketball teams all through school and never missed a game. Connecting on that level helped us get through the rough patches that I did have in my later teenage years.

BC: Who has had the most influence on your life? How so?

JS: I have had a lot of great men and women that have spoken into my life, but if I had to pick one it would be my dad. He’s done a lot of great things and had quite a bit of recognition. At the same time, he always placed his family in front of his ministry. In fact, during one of the church’s biggest seasons of growth he left the office every day at about 3:00 to come down and coach my basketball teams at First Baptist for several years. I don’t think that he ever missed a single game that we played in. We had tons of great memories growing up, and I am learning more and more that those things don’t happen accidentally…you have to be intentional about it. I am thankful that he did.

He has also been a man of integrity. He is still married to my mom, he hasn’t taken shortcuts financially, and he really is one of the most humble guys I’ve ever been around. He has also never pretended to be somebody that he isn’t.

BC: Seacoast is a very large church with quite a few campuses. What are some of the struggles you encounter with running such a large church?

JS: One of the biggest challenges that we face is that people walk in and don’t always feel like they have anything to contribute because of the size. The church started with a group of 8 people in an apartment that were naïve enough to think that God could use them to reach the city of Charleston with the good news about Jesus. In the early days, the opportunities to contribute and partner with us were easy to notice and point out. We still have those opportunities…it’s just a tougher challenge to engage people in them.

Another challenge in our culture at Seacoast is that we are constantly changing things in order to keep up with the growth that is occurring. I feel like we are in a state of “perpetual beta”, consistently looking for new ways to connect to our culture and connect it with the truth of scripture.

Oh yeah…another struggle for me personally is leading the size staff that I do. I’m just a 28 year old kid with a heart to love my community. I don’t have a lot of experience in management and leadership. There’s definitely a lot of on the job training in my roll.

BC: Megachurches: Godly or from the pit of Hell?

JS: As I shared above, they certainly come with challenges. I think it is also really powerful, though, when you can take the resources and people that make up a megachurch and engage them in living out the practical components of the gospel. A couple of months ago there was an article in our local paper that talked about how Seacoast had built a house for a family in need. The ironic part of that story is that most of our staff had no idea that it even happened. It was just a small group of people in our church that saw a need and did something about it. That’s pretty cool.

I think churches of any size get into trouble when they become inward focused instead of outward focused.

BC: In my experience, being transparent and real about my faith has been as strong of an evangelical tool as I’ve seen, mainly because Christians like to portray a “holier than thou/I’ve got it all figured out” facade. Why do you suppose the transparent/real method is so scarce? Shouldn’t it be the only method?

JS: I always thought there was some kind of unwritten rule that as soon as you became a “leader” or “pastor” you wouldn’t struggle with anything any more. It just seemed leaders were put on some kind of pedestal. So the natural thought then is “If I tell anybody about my shortcomings I would be letting them down”. This is just the church culture that has existed for a long time. I would guess that is a huge reason why this generation is not a big fan of “organized religion.” I am thankful that it is changing. Should it be the only method? Absolutely.

BC: What is your favorite bible verse? Why?

JS: Joshua 1:6 “Be strong and courageous, because you will lead these people to inherit the land I swore to their forefathers to give to them. Be strong and very courageous.” I think the story of Joshua has some parallels to my life in more ways than his first name! I feel like there are a lot of reasons that I shouldn’t be in the position that I am in as a leader, but for some reason God has placed me here. This verse has been a source of strength and encouragement during moments of doubt.

Note from Bill: Hmm…if there was a bible book named “Bill” I’d prob pick one of it’s verses for my favorite verse too.
BC: A large percentage of the FriendlyChristian.com readers are atheists. Given this opportunity, what words of love and encouragement would you have for them?

JS: I think that labels like atheist and Christian often times bring more division than there should be. We probably have a lot more in common than we realize. I have a lot of friends who are atheists. I think it’s pretty cool that you have created a forum where Christians and atheists are having conversations. We could use a lot more of that!

I guess my encouragement would be to always keep an open mind about God. I won’t try to convince you that He exists. I believe that He is fully capable of doing that himself if you choose to look for Him.

When a guy asked Jesus what the greatest commandment was, he said it was to love God and to love your neighbors as yourself. So, when it comes to atheists, Jesus has called me to love you guys. It probably sounds cheesy but that is what I try to do. I am sorry if you have endured any hurt or judgment in the name of Christ. Christians don’t always get it right, myself included.

BC: Many pastors speak of a “it was a Friday afternoon, the sun was out and the birds were chirping when the Lord Almighty placed his calling on my life” experience. Although I don’t have the “Friday afternoon” story, I have recently claimed my “calling” into ministry. How/when did you receive your calling into the ministry? Was it a “part the Red Sea” moment?

JS: I was working at Outback Steakhouse as a manager and I remember coming home one night and writing in my journal. I just felt like I was supposed to be doing more. We had led several of our co-workers to Christ and really loved the people that I worked with…but I just felt like I was supposed to be in a different place. The next day I started volunteering with the high school ministry at Seacoast. That turned into an internship, which turned into a full-time position at the church. After a while I realized that I was fulfilling the unique calling that I had on my life.

It was different than a “part the Red Sea” moment. It was more like a sense of discontent that stayed with me everywhere that I went. It’s still there in some ways, but I feel like I am in the role that God wants me in.

BC: Who are some of your favorite pastors and/or Christian authors?

JS: I have been listening to Francis Chan quite a bit recently. I love his transparency and authenticity. Haven’t read his new book yet but it’s on my list. I have learned a ton from guys like Andy Stanley, Erwin McManus, Mark Driscoll, Donald Miller and Craig Groeschel. I have had the chance to spend a little bit of time with Rick Warren and he is one of the most genuine guys I have ever met. I am currently reading My Beautiful Idol by Pete Gall, which is a pretty good read.

BC: Finally, do you believe that Satan and his henchmen have established an Earthly camp in, say…the city of Chicago? Maybe, and I’m just guessing, in Wrigley Field? If not, what’s the deal with your Cubs?

JS: So the Cubs have had a bad century! We are all entitled to have a bad century every now and then right? I am cautiously optimistic that this is the year that the curse is broken! It looks good so far, but hey, it’s still August
 

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In between classes, I sat in my car, door open, and talked on the phone with Tiffany. The important conversation was rudely interrupted by a man riding a old rusty bicycle with a squeaky chain. His once white crew-neck t-shirt was now brown, ripped, and had taken on the form of a V-neck. As he threw down his bike and approached my car, I knew what was about to happen.

My car ran out of gas…it’s up the road…three dollars…my wife…just three dollars for gas…it’s just up the road…I swear to God…

His story had holes in it. If his car really ran out of gas then why the heck was he riding a bicycle (not that I needed any sound reasoning…)? Also, three dollars of gas won’t get you 10 yards these days
While he pleaded his case I thought to myself, “Crap, do I have any cash in my wallet?”

I wasn’t asking this question because I wanted to give him three dollars. Instead I was wondering if I was gonna have to lie to this bum. Remembering that I had a ten dollar bill in my wallet, I knew what was about to come out of my mouth.

Nah, man. I never carry cash on me. Sorry dude…

I lied. I lied while looking him straight in the eyes.

I can justify my lie like it’s nobody’s business. Check this out:

• He was lying to me.
• Why should I give him my hard earned money when he has just as much opportunity as I do?
• Knowing that he’s gonna turn around and buy booze, if I give him the money, aren’t I essentially buying the bullet for his pistol?
• Maybe I’d pump some gas in his car if we were actually at the gas station. Giving him this money blindly is stupid.
• I need this money! I’m a broke college student.

Let’s skip ahead a few hours.

School is over. I’ve spent the past few hours regretting my previous encounter. If only I could do it all over again…

I start my car and groan as I realize that I’m gonna have to stop for gas. 

While waiting in line for the next available pump, another bum approaches my car. This guy is straight up homeless. I can tell that he has absolutely nothing to his name. He puts two fingers to his mouth and silently requests a cigarette. 

“Sorry, bro, I don’t smoke,” I announce. 

He nods, mumbles some gibberish, and walks away.

A pump becomes free. I begin to fill my tank. Immediately I feel guilty. The ten dollar bill is burning in my back pocket.

The mental arguing begins:

“Ok, I’ll tell him that I have ten bucks and that I’m gonna take him to go grab a sandwich. We’ll head up the road, eat, chat for a bit, and then I can get back to my comfy, selfish norm.”

“I could barely understand this guy. What the heck are we gonna talk about?”

“It doesn’t matter. This is your second chance. What are you gonna do, blow it again?”

“This dude might murder me!”

Amidst my rationalizing, I acknowledge what is happening: “The devil is in my head right now and is trying his best to get me to repeat my mistake (for the non-Christian - I’m talking myself out of this). I can’t let him win!”

The bum comes back. This time he’s holding some sort of tool.

“You wanna buy a staple gun?”

Rusted, old, and probably broken, a blind man wouldn’t have bought the tool.

“No…I’m good, thanks.”

That was it. That was all I said. I blew it. Again.

That’s my story. 0-2 in one day. I hope and pray that next time will be different.

Quick rebuttal to a potential argument: Christians, we’re not called to decide how the needy spend the money we give them. We’re called to give. “He’s gonna go buy beer” isn’t an excuse (unless he makes it clear: “I’m gonna go buy beer”). We give. God deals with the rest. I struggle with this like CRAZY.

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My friend Jeremy (Skeptigator) interviewed me at FreeThought Fort Wayne.

Skeptigator: Personally, I think “Atheism” has a P.R. problem within the Christian community (perhaps the U.S. in general)? Do you agree? And, if so, what can atheists and freethinkers do to improve on that image, at least open doors to a greater understanding within the Christian community?

Bill: I agree that the word “atheist” has very negative connotations. The word “Christian” also has many negative connotations. My advice to anyone is that you can be the difference. Fight the stereotype. Who knows, maybe it’ll catch on.

Read the entire interview here.

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I had an awesome opportunity to do a radio interview with Jason from GodTalkRadio. I didn’t tell any of you guys about it because I didn’t want the added pressure of knowing that some people I knew were listening live.

Now that it’s over…

[audio:http://www.friendlychristian.com/media/03JUN08.mp3]

Click here to listen. Right-click/save-as to download

It was my first radio interview, so cut me some freakin’ slack!! My segment starts about fifteen minutes or so in. Thanks for the opportunity, Jason. You da man!!

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Yesterday I posted the first half of my interview with the author of Leaving Eden, an undercover Atheist attending a Christian college. Here’s part 2!

• In your post “no honesty for atheists. atheists lie” you stated, “Maybe I should just shut up and let Christians tell my story for me, since they know me so well.” That comment really made me think. Could you expand on that a bit?

That was a sarcastic comment that came out of the frustration I felt whenever I tried to tell my story to Christians. Many times Christians ask me to talk about my deconversion and my atheism, but then refuse to believe what I said. It seemed to me like they didn’t want to listen to what I thought if it differed from what they thought it should be. To me, contradicting someone when they talk about their personal journey is something that you just don’t do, yet Christians were doing it to me left and right. Many Christians seem to think that they know my thoughts better than I do. Why ask a question if you’re not willing to accept the answer? Why listen to my story if you’re not going to believe it?

• I often feel unfairly judged as a Christian. I can’t stand the “one Christian speaks for every Christian” way of thinking (which, in my opinion is extremely ignorant). As a Christian, did you ever feel yourself lumped into that category?

I did. My experience was probably not that different from any other evangelical Christian who is theologically conservative and politically liberal.

• Do you still keep in contact with any of your old church friends?

I don’t really see any friends from church anymore. Many of those friendships were centered around church, so we didn’t really have a way to relate when we no longer had that in common. I had many other similar friendships, with people in bible study or prayer groups for example, that were based solely on our common faith, and it was the only thing we ever talked about. Those friendships disintegrated quickly because we simply had nothing to talk about anymore.

• Your post “coming out and the absence of religion” made (and makes) me sick to my stomach. You and I emailed back and forth a few times in discussion. I told you that the way you’re feeling now reminded me of how I felt every day before dedicating my life to Christ, and that I never wanted to feel that way again. As careful as I was with my words, without worrying about hurting my feelings, how did my statement make you feel?

I really appreciated your honesty, but I admit I was frustrated. My feelings about my deconversion and about Christianity are so complex that I try to simply document them without drawing conclusions; I simply write about things as they happen, even if I don’t necessarily know what it means. I felt like you might have misunderstood what I was trying to say, but I’ve been trying to accept that misunderstanding happens when you’re trying to communicate your story to someone else who hasn’t experienced it. I think it’s only natural to want to reach conclusions and make sense of observations, and it’s certainly natural to extrapolate from your own experience, but it still is frustrating.

• If you could gather every self-proclaimed follower of Christ in a room and have their attention for the duration of one comment, what would you say?

Live the gospel before you speak it.

• If you could gather every Atheist in a room and have their attention for the length of one comment, what would you say?

I thought about this for a long time and I can’t think of anything, mostly because I don’t think of atheists as a cohesive group with anything in common to address.

Here’s a comment for everybody: embrace difference. There’s a lot to learn and gain from people who have very different beliefs and backgrounds from you.

• I’ve struggled putting together this list of questions just about as much as I’ve ever struggled with anything before. Any ideas as to why?

I struggled with answering these questions too. When I talk to Christians about faith and atheism, I use a lot of effort to make sure I articulate things clearly and don’t say anything offensive. I think these conversations definitely require more thought than talking to someone who has the same beliefs as you do. But it’s definitely worth it.

Many thanks to my new friend at Leaving Eden. I’m honored to be able to call you a friend.

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Over the past few months I’ve had the privilege and pleasure of getting to know one of the most unique, smart, and interesting writers/people that I’ve come across in a very long time: the author of Leaving Eden. For those of you who might not know Leaving Eden’s story, go to the About Page to catch up real quick.

I recently had the opportunity to do a short interview with LE. I’ll post the first half of the interview today followed by the second half tomorrow. Enjoy!

1. I guess the first, and perhaps the most obvious question would be to ask why you’ve chosen to remain anonymous.

I feel that most people at Wheaton are simply not ready to deal with having an atheist openly among them. When my blog is read, I want the focus to be on the story of an atheist student, not on my identity, and I deliberately try to be as vague as possible about that. I think people will be more likely to listen to my story this way, when it’s not prejudiced by their perception of me. I don’t want to be judged on the basis of my atheism by people at Wheaton who only know me in passing.

There are also more practical reasons: I don’t know what the repercussions would be if I came out while still a student at Wheaton. Even though deconversion probably wouldn’t be a basis for expulsion or disciplinary action, there is still a lot at stake at a school where everything is based on the assumption that all students are Christians. Almost all of my classes, for example, require me to give devotions, write papers and participate in class discussions about my personal spiritual life and my views on Christian theology, and there’s no precedent for atheist students.
There are a lot of things I want to write about that my anonymity doesn’t allow. I would like to write about classes I’m in or the discipline that I’m majoring in, or specific things that I’m passionate about. Maybe I will someday, but for now remaining anonymous is the right thing for me to do.

2. How do you feel when/if Christians ask you if they can pray for you? Do you still let them?

I don’t have a problem with people praying for me in private, but I don’t want to know about it. I would definitely have a problem with someone praying for me in my presence, because I just don’t think it’s helpful or considerate. Luckily, no one has tried to pray with me since I became an atheist.
Saying “I’m praying for you” is such a normal part of speech for Christians that it might be hard for them to adapt to non-Christians, or they might not even want to. When Christians say this to me, I just say “thanks” or “okay” and try to move the conversation along. It doesn’t bother me too much, but I’d also caution Christians against saying this to non-Christians too often. One problem is that if you just say “I’m praying for you,” I have no idea what that means. Are you praying for me to believe in God? Are you praying that I’ll be healthy and happy? Are you praying that I’ll be a stronger atheist? If you are determined to tell an atheist that you’re praying for him, think carefully about your motivation. If you simply want me to know that you’re thinking about me and you care about me, consider using words that would be meaningful to both of us, instead of just to you. Remember that atheists don’t believe in God, so prayer means nothing to us. If your intention in talking about prayer or trying to pray with someone is to influence them to believe in God, don’t be shifty about it. Even if someone can’t accept my nonbelief, it’s a lot easer for me to respect their beliefs if they are honest about their motivations.

3. You made the statement of “unfortunately, most people don’t seem capable of just listening and receiving someone else’s story.” I completely agree. I also think that this is one of the biggest reasons why most Atheists and Christians are unable to have a mature, back and forth conversation. With all the passion that is involved in the great God debate, what advice would you give to Christians and Atheist alike in attempt to promote the type of relationships that you’ve described? Do you think it’s REALLY possible for people, say you and I, to have deep faith/no faith conversations without being forceful, bull-headed, or angry? If so, why can’t more people see to figure out how to do it?

I do think it’s possible to have these conversations in a civilized way, and I also think it’s possible to have very deep relationships with people who disagree about religion.

It has to start with pure intentions. Your motivation shouldn’t be to convert anyone or even to sow seeds of doubt in anyone’s mind, but to hear their story and know their perspective, and to share yours, so you can be enriched by each other. You have to be honest with yourself about what your intentions are. If you say you don’t want to convert anyone but you have an idea in your mind that you’re going to drop little Christian tidbits in conversation and it would be great if you could cause them to doubt, it will always come out in your words or actions. If you do have that intention, it’s best to be honest from the start. I’ve had Christians say to me, “you know, I do want you to become a Christian again, and I’ll try to restrain myself but I can’t guarantee that I won’t preach or quote scripture at you sometimes. I hope you’ll forgive me when that happens.” I really appreciate and respect that. That kind of honesty can save a friendship.

I can honestly say that I have no intentions of leading anybody away from whatever road they’re on. I’m in my infancy as an atheist and I’m quite happy figuring out my own road and sharing it with people who want to walk with me. I’ve actually had conversations with Christians where I’ve sensed that they had some doubt in their own faith, and I knew there were strong atheist things I could say that would rip that seam a little wider. But I keep quiet, both out of respect for them and their faith, and because I know I’m not ready for the responsibility of trying to change someone’s mind on something so important.

4. What made you decide to record your journey and publish it for the world to read?

I started my blog kind of on a whim, out of frustration and anger at being silenced. I wanted to set a precedent for atheist students at Wheaton and other Christian colleges. At Wheaton, atheist students are either treated like they don’t exist, or are used as examples of what not to be. I was tired of that, even when I was still a Christian, and I think it’s a really lousy way to go through college being treated as second-class because of your nonbelief.

Mostly I just wanted to get things off my chest and have a place where I could be honest. Being able to write and having the support of people online has helped me get through this semester with my sanity intact.

More to come tomorrow!

Care to comment?

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