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An excerpt from an email conversation between myself and an Atheist friend.
Me: For what it’s worth (and I can only speak for myself), it’s incredibly frustrating as a [tag]Christian [/tag]to not be able to defend every critique of the Christian faith. I have a friend who IS a Christian, but he likes to push my buttons. At times it’s fun. Other times I want to swing at him. I don’t have all the answers. Heck, I don’t even have most of the answers. Truthfully, a lot of what I believe is dumb! It’s over the top and weird, yet I believe it. I can’t always explain it. I can’t always put a scientific reason behind believing what I believe…yet I still believe. I wonder if other Christians get frustrated like that too…? It makes me feel insignificant, small, and worst of all, unintelligent. Quite honestly, I feel like I’m an easy target. Having faith nowadays is almost a sign of weakness…like I can’t think for myself.
In addition, an [tag]Atheist [/tag]typically claims to only be 99% sure that there is no God. Because he/she left that 1% of possibility, they can now claim to be open-minded. Whereas I, a Christian, don’t claim a 1% possibility that God doesn’t exist, therefore am labeled as closed-minded. All kidding aside, if [tag]God [/tag]exists, theoretically he could prove his existence to an Atheist. His non-existence can’t be proven, however.
My name is Bill and I am a closed-minded sissy who can’t think for himself.
Let’s get some good conversation out of this one.
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Hi Bill
Sometimes I hear the argument that whether or not you are someone who is faith-based or reason-based has little to do with choices that person consciously makes. The argument says that it has more to do with the make-up of your brain…! To that I say: WOW!! What does that do to the whole concept of freewill? I’m not sure I can get on-board with the whole born faith-er or born reason-er. I don’t like where it leads…
As for your faith…why worry about justifying it…? That’s the idea behind faith isn’t it? Belief without evidence… It seems, to me anyway, that some one who tries to twist science to support their faith, or vice versa, really is lacking in faith.
Just a thought!
A definitional note….I consider myself an atheist with respect to Zeus, Pele, Marduk, Ra AND Yahweh or jehovah…my reason? Because there’s little to no evidence to support belief in them.
I can not prove there is NO god, in much the same way that I cannot prove there is NOT a large porcelain teapot orbiting the sun between the orbits of Earth and Mars. It is really difficult to prove a negative.
However, when somebody makes a positive claim like: My god is real and exists! The onus is on them to provide evidence and/or reason for said claim. My contention? There is little more evidence for Yahweh or Jehovah then there is for Pele or Zeus.
I have never completely dismissed the idea of a god…I just think any religion humanity has thus far conjured hasn’t come close…
“UNLEASH THE FURY!!!”
Robert
That is not the basis for claiming to be open-minded or close-minded. The basis is that one is open to additional evidence, ideas, or arguments changing your conclusion. Arguably, it reflects how you deal with cognitive dissonance: If the data leads me to a conclusion other than the one I currently hold, do I reject the data or do I reject the conclusion I previously hold ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
Gods Gal has mentioned a similar thing on her blog. I went off on a bit of a tangent there but essentially you cannot prove a non-existence at all, merely a “not-probable”. Even attempting such a ludicrous feat is grounds to have your Certificate of Sanity revoked.
What? You don’t have a Certificate of Sanity, you say?
Ha ha :-j =))
Seriously though, having the answers isn’t really that important as long as you are willing to ask the questions and listen to the answers even if you don’t like them. Being close minded is about ignoring the questions in the hope that they will go away.
I don’t think anyone here is accusing anyone else of being close minded.
Hi Bill…
One thing I forgot to ask…
If you were presented with evidence that supported something that you denied…in ANY area of your accepted magisteria.
Would you change your mind? Would you alter your knowlege?
I think that question does more to define whether or not a person is open-minded or closed.
Robert
@Ben…
Thanks for the definition and link. I’ll definitely look into it more!
@hover…
I love it! I agree completely!
@Robert…
Yeah, it would have to! If I didn’t believe it aliens…and then saw an alien…I’d have to then consider myself a believer.
Hi Bill
Then I consider you open-minded!
I think you and I would have very little to fight about…
I think you are someone who believes faith to be a personal matter but who chooses to fellowship with people who share your faith and still you comport yourself in very open and compassionate way.
I don’t see you as Christian who would deny basic civil rights to someone because who they choose to love is breaking your God’s rule.
More conservative Christians seem to need a ‘bogeyman’ to drive their faith. They need something to fear. It’s a very us vs. them mentality. Right now with the ascendancy of atheism into the public mind, many Christians of all stripes rally together to try to beat back this new ‘militant atheism’. I wonder though…if they were to be successful and they eliminated us heathens from their midst. How long would they stay be united or would they they fragment into Catholics vs. Protestants? Who would win that fight?
Bogey man indeed!
Love is patient, Love is kind,
It does not envy, it does not boast,
It is not proud, It is not rude,
It is not self-seeking,
It is not easily angered,
It keeps no record of wrongs.
Love does not delight in evil,
but rejoices with the truth.
Love always protects, always trusts,
always hopes, always perseveres.
Love bears all things, believes all things,
hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never ends.
L o v e N e v e r F a i l s.
Corinthians 13 : 4 - 8
Robert
Good Morning Bill.
The inability to adequately explain/defend something you believe in doesn’t mean that either you or your belief are dumb.
Some people are simiply better than others at articulating what they think.
I think you are very articulate at explaining your feelings.
My perception is that this is how you came to believe in God. You just felt his/her presence. It made you feel good. You believe your life is better for it.
A religious epiphany has nothing to do with reason or logic.
Someone who has taken more time to rsearch an issue is at an advantage in a debate. They have more information at their disposal.
It doesn’t mean they are more intelligent. I just means they are better read.
If you want to become better at using reason and logic in a discussion it probably means you need to spend more time doing research on the subject.
If you don’t it doesn’t mean are more of less intelligent. It probably means there are other things you want to spend your time on.
Having a feeling that God exist, especially if you have had a religious epiphany, isn’t something I think someone can debate with you. You either have that feeling or don’t.
A religious epiphany is also probably something that is very hard to find the words to adequately describe. Of course I wouldn’t know since I have never had one.
Ha! I used to be THAT Christian…the button-pusher one, that is. :d
@Polly…
For constructive reasons of just to be “that person?”
Just curious
Bill said:
I try not to believe things I can’t support. I’m “none of the above” unless I’ve got a good solid idea of what I’m talking about.
I used to passionately argue about the existence of stuff I really had no evidence for. That, for me, was treading on thin ice… overcertainty was a personal problem… much better to be agnostic.
Bill,
I was partly looking for answers (but knowing from experience that I wouldn’t find any satisfactory ones)and partly just venting my frustration with what I saw as insurmountable problems in the Bible.
To tell you the truth, it drove me nuts that no one else seemed to mind the genocide that’s written in the Old Testament. I would just get the same response: “You believe in Jesus, right? Well, what difference does it make? God’s god.” or my favorite, “I believe because I believe.”
How can someone NOT care enough to probe into the god they’re serving?
In a sense, I think agnosticism and atheism is much more for sissies (Yes, I’m a sissy). As a believer I kind of got tired of being on the - and I say this with all due respect - defensive side of arguments. It’s a lot easier to just follow evidence and withhold belief than to actually believe something and risk having it shot full of holes.
@Polly…
It currently drives me nuts that few Christians mind the genocide, etc. I don’t understand how that doesn’t bother some people. I’m not one for the generic reasons that you listed.
We actually talked about this very subject at my small group last Monday. I gave my piece (very similar to thoughts I wrote in previous posts) and expected people to exhale in agreement. Funny, nobody really did! Clueless, I asked for my friends to help me understand their thoughts.
My concerns/questions with the OT God didn’t really concern them. I’m not talking about some rookie naive Christians, either. They didn’t really have a reason why they weren’t bothered. It blew me away (and still kinda does).
I couldn’t have said it better myself. I always encourage my friends to do so. Ask the tough questions. Give God a chance to be God.
The defensive side - well put. It does get a bit tiring.
I am gonna write that down. What an incredible quote. Thank you!
After reading the comment I just posted I felt like I needed to add this:
I’m not trying to talk bad about people who don’t question/dig into their faith as much as I do.
I just have such a questioning spirit. I should remember that not everybody is wired the same way
:)>-
Truthfully, a lot of what I believe is dumb! It’s over the top and weird, yet I believe it. I can’t always explain it. I can’t always put a scientific reason behind believing what I believe … yet I still believe.
I honestly can’t comprehend how you could say something like that. It’s like saying “I have no reason for believing this, but I believe it” or, more bluntly, “I don’t believe this, but I believe it”. What on Earth does “I believe” mean if not “I believe”???
I could no more believe that I’m a gay, pink unicorn than I could believe any other statement while simultaneously acknowledging that it’s ridiculous and over the top. You can’t just point at some random thing and say “I believe it”, because it’s not the truth, you have to have a reason. It’s like Christianity has perverted the very concept of truth itself!
I really liked the way you put things, and I especially liked how you discussed the open-minded concept. It made me think about how ready we are to label someone else as open or close-minded. And in some ways, nobody wins…
Let’s say you try to get someone to believe in God and they say, “No way. I won’t believe.” Chances are you label them close-minded and walk away. On the other hand, if they changed their mind right then and there, in all honesty, I think I might be inclined to think they can’t think for themselves.
I’m not saying that’s the right thing to do at all, but your post got me thinking. (o:
@Brittany…
Hi! Thanks for commenting
I’ve never approached Christianity as a salesman. Maybe I’m wrong, I don’t know.
I believe that God wants my heart…not for me to buy off on some sales pitch I heard from a smooth talker.
I’ve never tried to “sell” Christianity to anybody, so I’ve never been “disappointed” when someone rejected my attempt.
People know I’m a Christian. I never shy away from talking about my faith. At the same time, I’m not pushy about it. If somebody wants to check it out, I’ll help them along the way as much as I can. Other than that, you’re not gonna find me going door-to-door.
Glad I got you thinking!! :d
I think that’s the BEST approach out there! I’m glad you’re NOT one of those people. (o:
I know I used convincing someone about God as my example, but I was thinking about any time you’re trying to prove a point– whether it’s believing or God or that banana pudding is the tastiest of all puddings.
Also, THANK YOU for responding!