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There’s a theory that states [tag]Atheist[/tag]s are generally smarter than Christians.
When I first started this site, the very first thing I realized was how smart most Atheists were. I was intimidated and a bit taken back. I’ve since read many Atheist responses to the apparently common question of “are Atheists smarter than [tag]Christian[/tag]s?” Many, if not all of the responses that I’ve read have responded something similar to this:
There are many smart people in the world - both Atheist and Christian. To say any one group is smarter than the other is a stretch.
If I were to go out on a limb, I’d say that in general, Atheists are smarter than Christians. The reasons are plentiful.
If we were to be honest and acknowledge things for how they really are, we’d find that many Atheists are scholars…[tag]science [/tag]and [tag]math [/tag]whizzes. People who see extreme importance in education and value their pursuit thereof. Now, like any other facet of life, of course there are plenty of exceptions. There are PLENTY of smart Christians.
I may catch some heat for saying these things - I’m aware of that. But can’t we just be honest with each other? I’m not trying to say that Christians are dumb, nor am I trying to say, “all hail mighty Atheists!” If the pot is black…well…call it black!
I choose to be part of the less smart group. I choose to, as one commenter said yesterday, to “be on the defensive side of arguments.” I am on the team that can’t prove their beliefs with science or math. I choose to be a member of the team that bases their beliefs in the unseen. There is no formula…there is no science.
My name is Bill and I’m an uneducated sissy.
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I don’t think any amount of “smart” can ever outdo the wisdom of God. i will take that over booksmart any day.:)
I was wondering where this whold “I’m dumb” schtick was going.
Do you have to be “uneducated” to be a good Christian? That sounds awful. Surely it’s possible to hang on to your faith while knowing anything at all about the world around you? Where do you draw the line? No reading or writing? No understanding of electricity? Or just no understanding of the latest research on cancer?
This brings to mind a question I’ve had for awhile. If you accept the concept of original sin (partaking of the tree of knowledge), and that Jesus died for your sins, why isn’t it thumbing your nose at Jesus to choose ignorance? I mean, as the human face of God it would be hard not to be annoyed that you went to all that trouble to make it okay to use your noggin and nobody wants to after all.
Discuss
I’m not sure where this came from either Heather…in fact it’s borderline insulting….:-?
There are extrememly intelligent athiests, and Christian alike…there are extrememly dumb of both as well…LOL
Like I said previously, I would rather have the wisdom of God anyday, over book smarts….
yeah but GG, you do have both…Godly wisdom and book smarts. I think part of the problem for those of us who are also well studied and book smart along with being a Christian is that the knowledge of us knowing God immediately makes us less educated, in some eyes…
Good point Tam, because of the “I need scientific proof” factor…..We live in the ultimate scientific lab, and serve the ulitmate science genius…how great is that!;)
(Blanket apology: please forgive my generalizations)
I agree with the idea that if you took the IQ of all christians and all atheists and compared them, atheists would be smarter. It’s just easier to say “God did it” than to explain the science and logic behind our every day lives.
That said, it’s important to note that science and religion are not incompatible. The man who first theorized the big bang was a catholic priest. The distinction is that science teaches us around the physical world around us, and religion gives significance to that world. Said another way, science seeks to answer the what and religion seeks to answer the why. In order to have complete understanding, I believe you must be a scholar of both.
I also want to say that being “smart christian” puts you on the most difficult argumentative ground. You can’t just say “Well God did it and I don’t have to explain it”, you’re rightly expected to have more finesse than that! You also end up being the whipping boy for the mistakes of other non-intellectual christians. If I had a dollar for every time I had to explain to someone how what I believe is DRASTICALY different from the “God Hate’s Fags” camp, I wouldn’t be driving around in a used Pontiac!!!
Well Bill…..allow me to join you in that group.
As a Christian I have learned NOT to argue people. I can state what I believe and tell people why but I will NOT argue with a person who believes differently.
And well…….maybe thats part of the difference.
Because, I am smart. Someone may think I am “dumb” because they feel I can not argue with what they are saying but that is so UNTRUE. I dont argue because I choose not to. i am not here to force someone into my beliefs through some crafty words I use to get them to believe what I am saying. I have a story. And its a story about how God has altered my life, helped me to change my ways, and dug me out of a number of giant pits. I can only tell people why I believe and if they so choose to take a chance with the God that I have come to know and love then AMEN.
If not…..I wont argue you. Its a choice. A personal choice. But arguing with you and finding some crafty way to make you feel like your wrong…..is just not how I do things nor does not arguing make me dumb.
My own natural modesty prevents me from acknowledging that I am, in fact, much smarter than Christians. :d
OK, I’m joking. If I was that smart then I would understand why people choose faith. I freely confess that I don’t get it at all.
Here’s my take on it:
I think that the idea that Atheists are smarter than Christians came about as a result of the movements in North America to deny evolution in favour of creationism. In effect denial of an established and well respected scientific theory in favour of a story.
No, bear with me here.
Many Christians see evolution as a key point against their faith. Rather a key argument against their faith. After all, many reason, if we evolved from a lower animal then how can we have been created in God’s image. They then deny the evidence of evolution and stick to a literal reading of the creation story.
Now, many Christians don’t have a problem with evolution. They argue that any being capable of creating the universe could begin life and set it along an evolutionary path. Furthermore the bible stories, they argue, are not literal as the “days” it took to create the universe could just as easily refer to “ages”. The original text was translated to the closest equivalent in Greek, then Latin, then English. It’s easy to see how a period of time could translate to “day”.
One group is ignoring facts to retain a belief in their literal interpretation of their religion while the other are adjusting their views to conform to the facts. Both are Christians and yet the public view is of the extremists, that Christians are ignoring facts.
It’s a matter of perception.
If you’re saying something like “the world is flat and held up by pillars (as the OT says) rather than being a globe” then you are effectively telling the world that you deny the evidence including thousands of photographs taken from space and the science underlying much of modern technology like GPS and satellite TV.
I think that you’ll agree that ignoring facts is dumb and worse it makes you look dumb. Human nature is such that it is easy to pick on the stupid and dumb actions quickly become the butt of jokes. Furthermore, in any debate, you should always be prepared to leap on the mistakes of your opponent and pummel them mercilessly. Maybe even to make them cry. :((
Call a fundie dumb enough, for long enough, and the stereotype perception replaces the actual person.
–
I’d also like to add that education and intelligence are not the same thing although they are certainly related. I know plenty of people who are knowledgeable but as thick as pigs…um…swill as well as people who are not so well educated but are very intelligent.
I have to ask this…
How does a Bible believing Christian reconcile BLIND faith with this passage:
“But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you…” 1 Peter 3:15
It seems to me that some Christians say “just have faith!”…but this passage seems to say something very different to me.
How are Christians supposed to interpret this?
Robert
I think it boils down to simple numbers.
Christianity is the majority faith in America.
Assuming most people just follow what their parents taught them… most Americans will be Christians.
Assuming that SMART people (however you define that) will be people who QUESTION what they’re taught, smart people will always Question, and may sometimes come up with a different answer than their parents did.
We’re just assuming the definition of “SMART” as being “questioning what their parents taught them.”
Now for the sake of argument, let’s assume that some SMART christians question what their parents taught them and still become Christians, and some smart Christians question and become atheists. And some smart atheists question and become Christians and some smart atheists question and become atheists.
So if we look across the population, since most people in America we’re born into a Christian family, most people who are currently atheists were people who QUESTIONED.
That’s not to say that any given atheist is smarter or dumber than any given christian. It’s just to say that the label “atheist” is a good way to locate people who have questioned. They’re easy to find because they’re the ones swimming against the current. There are plenty (maybe the same number, maybe MORE) Christians who are just as intelligent, maybe more intelligent, but they’re swimming with the current, and so not as easy to spot.
Uh, Robert, that’s pretty much what every believer on here has done, the fact that you don’t choose to believe is not our problem….besides my faith isn’t not blind, I know exactly who He is.
Hov::-$
Given the number of times I have done things that can only be described as being stupid, idiotic and incredibly dumb I may not be qualified to comment on the question of “smartness”
I also don’t remember ever reading about any study comparing the intelligence (test scores?) of antheist versus people who believe in God.
I can only comment on the question based on my own perceptions. My perceptions of course come with the atheistic bias I probably have of the world.
I agree with Gods Gal that being “book-smart” doesn’t mean a person is more intelligent than someone who isn’t that well read. Being well read is often confused with being very intelligent.
It also seems to me that people who can quote from books of science are thought of by our culture to be more intelligent than people who quote the bible. I think both groups are well read just on different subjects. It also seems our culture doesn’t pay as much attention to people of science, but that’s another question.
Most of the people I know that admit to not believing in God are very well read.
Among my family and friends they are thought of as being very intelligent. I refer you back to my first sentence above as evidence that this is not necessarily the case.
I think if you have come to be an atheist it is very likely you have a skeptical, questioning mind. It is very likely you pursued these questions by attending college. By spending a significant amount of your time reading. For these reasons you may be thought of as being very intelligent. A little crazy perhaps, but intelligent.
Also the more times you debate your beliefs the more likely it is that you will have well thought out answers. To an unbiased observer you may be thought of as being more intelligent.
My perception is that atheist are very likley to have a lot of practise in answering the question of why they don’t believe in God.
Through history if an atheist doesn’t become very good at answering questions they get burned at the stake. That is pretty good motivation to become very well educated.
I will admit it, since I’ve become an atheist (and it hasn’t really been very long)I’ve been reading a LOT more. OK, some is sci-fi, but the rest is actual sci. And I now have to read some other books on ethics, philosophy, and other subjects. Geez, it’s freakin’ hard work being an atheist #:-s because you can’t just accept something by pointing to the Word. It’s a huge difference. Now, instead of one book, I’ve got literally 100’s to read.
I immediately felt the difference once I deconverted and started hangin’ round the old atheist campfires - atheist blogs. Not to brag, I’m making a point here, but the youth pastor at church once told me that everyone in our Bible study thinks I’m a genius. But guess what? Not among atheists I’m not. I may have known the Bible, but I knew little else. My reasoning skills and my knowledge database were in serious disrepair from having just one reference book for all of life. I may be exaggerating a little. I did read some other books besides the Bible, but I always felt guilty if they weren’t required reading.
I really feel like I’m playing catchup, now! I still value the meditations on the words of JC and the proverbs and other stories of the Bible. And I learned plenty from reading the Bible. But, the world’s a lot bigger than just that. Plus, I would always disregard any information that contradicted what the Bible said - or my interpretation of what it said. So, much information was lost that way. I basically ignored biology in college and philosophy and psychology, too.
I can’t speak for others, but I think there are some blinders that came with accepting JC that limited my horizons. But, as always, YMMV.
YAAAAAY, FC quoted me! :d
Bill, Wikipedia tells me that although education is correlated with atheism, and evidence suggests that raw intelligence might be correlated too, there is still no definitive study showing that to be the case (wiki page).
That said, I gotta tell you, I *heart* you for writing this post
I just got back from getting angry at another blogger. She is blaming evolutionary theory and secularism for every bad thing under the sun. Why is it that Christians are always picking up on the negative stereotypes, but are rarely thanking us for the good ones, like being scientists and thinkers and being anal so the bridges don’t fall down?
Recently there was a study showing that liberals and conservatives have fundamental brain differences (source). Added to other similar studies I’ve read, I’ve got this growing hunch that most ideological or religious differences are biological in nature. Who knows, maybe there’s a good reason why people are different. Don’t we need all types to solve the complex problems in this world? A “right wing” approach may work on one problem and fail on another. Reality is too complex to have an ideology. Maybe society works best when some people are preoccupied with being skeptical and rigorous, and some people are preoccupied with being creative and spontaneous, some like dealing with physical things, and others with emotions and people.
Bill, Wikipedia tells me that although education is correlated with atheism, and evidence suggests that raw intelligence might be correlated too, there is still no definitive study showing that to be the case (wiki page).
That said, I gotta tell you, I *heart* you for writing this post
I just got back from getting angry at another blogger. She is blaming evolutionary theory and secularism for every bad thing under the sun. Why is it that Christians are always picking up on the negative stereotypes, but are rarely thanking us for the good ones, like being scientists and thinkers and being anal so the bridges don’t fall down?
Recently there was a study showing that liberals and conservatives have fundamental brain differences (source). Added to other similar studies I’ve read, I’ve got this growing hunch that most ideological or religious differences are biological in nature. Who knows, maybe there’s a good reason why people are different. Don’t we need all types to solve the complex problems in this world? A “right wing” approach may work on one problem and fail on another. Reality is too complex to have an ideology. Maybe society works best when some people are preoccupied with being skeptical and rigorous, and some people are preoccupied with being creative and spontaneous, some like dealing with physical things, and others with emotions and people.
test (sorry)
Bill, Wikipedia tells me that although education is correlated with atheism, and evidence suggests that raw intelligence might be correlated too, there is still no definitive study showing that to be the case.
That said, I gotta tell you, I *heart* you for writing this post
I just got back from getting angry at another blogger. She is blaming evolutionary theory and secularism for every bad thing under the sun. Why is it that Christians are always picking up on the negative stereotypes, but are rarely thanking us for the good ones, like being scientists and thinkers and being anal so the bridges don’t fall down?
Recently there was a study showing that liberals and conservatives have fundamental brain differences. Added to other similar studies I’ve read, I’ve got this growing hunch that most ideological or religious differences are biological in nature. Who knows, maybe there’s a good reason why people are different. Don’t we need all types to solve the complex problems in this world? A “right wing” approach may work on one problem and fail on another. Reality is too complex to have an ideology. Maybe society works best when some people are preoccupied with being skeptical and rigorous, and some people are preoccupied with being creative and spontaneous, some like dealing with physical things, and others with emotions and people.
I think I had too many links in my previous post, and I had to strip some out, so here’s the Wikipedia entry on “Religiosity and Intelligence”: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence
Like I said, evidence is pointing to a negative correlation between religiosity and intelligence, but a definitive study doesn’t seem to have been done yet.
@Bill:
You’re not going to like my response, Bill. Sorry in advance.
I believe this position is wrong. Not wrong as in incorrect, wrong as in immoral. Let’s say I decide to follow your ideas above. For my belief about how electricity flows, I do not use science, but instead believe things that I ‘can’t prove.’ I believe that electricity only flows through metal. Therefore, I don’t put protective covers over my electrical outlets. As a result my daughter electrocutes herself and partially melts her lips, permanently disfiguring her face. I made the correct decision in the context of my beliefs. The horrible result stems not from my desire to risk or do harm, but from my deliberate acceptance of error in my beliefs about what is.
Decisions can arbitrarily be broken up in many different ways. One way to look at decisions is to break them up into an assessment of the situation, the probable results of your available actions, and how you value those probable results - which ones you find preferable. If you are a priori choosing to pursue anything other than accurate beliefs, arrived at by the best methods we fallible mortal humans have come up with, you are deliberately choosing to cause more harm to yourself and others in the long run. Your assessment of the situation will be strongly affected and more likely to be wrong. Your ideas about probable results of your actions will also be more likely to be wrong. How you value those outcomes may be least affected - generally, we all like health and happiness - but even that will be affected.
If after your best thinking and investigation you believed Christianity represented the most accurate model of reality, the above would not apply. You would be doing your best just like I am. I could be wrong and my best efforts could lead me to raise my daughter to join me in eternal damnation. There is no ’safe bet’ - I cannot avoid the possibility of causing great harm while intending to cause the opposite. But I can’t give it less than my best effort to make my ideas right (not comfortable, not popular, not easy, not socially acceptable, but right) because it would be immoral to do so.
My $0.02.
@Ben…
I don’t dislike your response, man. Your $0.02 is always welcome.
I don’t see my faith as harmful. My children won’t have disfigured faces as a result of being raised in a Christian household.
They might have disfigured faces cuz their daddy is a pretty funky dude, though!
:((
@Polly…
Yay! You’re famous! Quit your job and allow your newly found celebrity status to pay the bills
(*)
I don’t think that there is a study that compares intelligence with religious belief but there is one that compares test results with educational spending. There is less spending per head in the Bible Belt and consequently poorer test results.
It’s probably coincidental though.
Sorry if this appears twice.
I don’t think that there is a study that compares intelligence with religious belief but there is one that compares test results with educational spending - http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN2438214220070524. There is less spending per head in the Bible Belt and consequently poorer test results.
It’s probably coincidental though.
I constantly cite this as a reason for many of the percieved problems with Christianity. When I traveled to India for a summer, I observed that Christians were generally the most educated and moral. While the Hindus were bombing, rioting and committing human rights atrocities, it was the minority Christians who were encouraging education and justice.
Does this mean that all Hindus are stupid and amoral people and all christians are intelligent and moral? Not at all, it just shows that the dominant worldview in a culture will always have similar systemic problems. Just like Islam in Iran and just like Christianity in America.
Interesting thoughts, Erik…
I’ll have to think about that awhile.
Thanks for the link Hoverfrog.
Hoverfrog Says:
“There is less spending per head in the Bible Belt and consequently poorer test results.”
The analysis of the data by
Tom Loveless of the Brookings Institution
would seem to refute your observation.
“Loveless said two areas where education spending might make a difference were in teacher salaries and small class sizes for first graders. But overall, the relationship between spending on education and test performance was not strong, he said.”
The Wikipedia comments on the Brookings Institution indicate to me they are an independent research group so I have some confidence their analysis has no strong bias.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brookings_Institution
“During the administration of President Richard M. Nixon, Brookings was named to Nixon’s famous enemies list, due to its criticism of Nixon’s domestic and foreign policies. Nixon-administration advisor Charles Colson even proposed firebombing the Brookings Institution and stealing politically damaging documents while firefighters put the fire out.”
Reading the above makes me hope that none of the Christian readers of this blog will report me and Hoverfrog to that defender of the faith President Bush.:d
As a kid, I was always scored insanely high on tests, breezed through schoolwork, etc. My family made a “God” of the capacity of the human brain and that reflected itself in how we lived our lives…
Fast-forward to when I was 28, drunk, sick, and very, very sad. I was still extremely intelligent, but I felt I was too smart to need or want God. How wrong I was. Fortunately God had mercy on me and helped me to straighten out my priorities.
I’d agree with you, Bill. The “average athiest” is probably more intelligent (measured by standardized tests) than your average Christian. That isn’t a result of a person’s belief in Jesus or lack thereof, though. It’s probably more based in the misguided understanding that a belief in Jesus Christ as the son of God requires one to check out on rational thought.
School is generally designed to make children into hard-working little proles, good at obeying authority, rote memorisation and performing boring drudge work for long periods without complaint. Any logic or critical thinking skills they pick up along the way is purely coincidental.
I don’t think much of high scores in school. I got them too, but the most valuable things that I learnt I taught myself.