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I haven’t yet shied away from being honest on this site. Today I will continue my streak.
Disclaimer: I am not looking for an excuse to abandon my faith nor am I having second thoughts about it. Relax.
I feel like God has blessed/cursed me. I feel like I’m currently able to view Christianity through the eyes of an atheist. I see the “flaws.” I see the “holes.” The OT God seems much different from the NT God. I see the hypocrisy.
It’s unsettling and a bit troubling to me.
I don’t know why, but I’m just so sold out on God, though. I’m on a quest for answers. I’ve been asking God why he’s made it so hard to believe. I’m having a hard time trying to figure out why he would condemn people to burn for eternity for not believing in him. To be honest, he’s made it pretty tough to buy off on this whole Christianity thing and the consequence seems a bit harsh. It doesn’t seem loving.
There’s an ongoing debate between believers and unbelievers on this site. I’m enjoying reading and participating. I’ve noticed, though, that non-believers have honest questions and problems with the Christian faith…many of which I also have. I’ve noticed a pattern in the Christian answers. They’re all simple, short and insufficient (for me, anyways). “God is good,” and “Jesus died for your sins” aren’t good enough answers.
Last Sunday at church, during a prayer I remember thinking, “God…I love you.” I then began to process another thought but I quickly told myself that I wasn’t gonna allow my mind to even process it. Immediately realizing that that was a dumb thing to do, I allowed myself to finish my thought. “I don’t always know why God, but I DO love you.”
I could list a million reasons I love God. But there are also times when I just don’t understand why God did/does things that he did/does. And that, friend, doesn’t always sit well with me.
I’m so passionate about this stuff right now. I want to understand God. Will I ever get the answers I’m looking for - I have no idea. God says if I seek him I’ll find him. Ask and it shall be given, right? Well, I’m seeking and asking. We’ll see where this takes me.
It’s a bit uncomfortable to be this honest with you guys. I feel like I’m completely exposed and vulnerable. I just can’t be anything but real about my faith, though. I refuse to lie and pretend like I’ve got it all figured out. I believe that God will honor my questions. I want real faith. I want solid faith. I want unshakable faith!
I feel like if an atheist came up to me and told me their concerns with the Christian faith, as of today I’d prob just put my hand on their shoulder, look in their eyes and say, “I understand.”
One atheist commenter once expressed their concern that my site content would eventually drive away all the Christians. I wonder how much longer it might be until it actually happens. I wonder, though, will it be because of me? Is my honesty too much to handle? Do you think I’m a poor example of a Christian? Are my questions a sign of weak faith? I personally believe my questions are a sign of strength…they show a desire to know God more.
It’s in me. I have an burning desire to grow closer to God. I want to tell the world about him. I can’t shake it and the feeling grows more intense each passing day. I’m so excited about this journey that I can barely contain myself! I wouldn’t want it any other way.
Yet I have many of the same questions and feelings as an atheist. Crazy, eh?
I’d love to hear your thoughts.
Popularity: 11% [?]
I don’t know where you’ll end up on your journey, but I know how you feel, Bill.
I wrote about the same topic recently, while reflecting on the recent news stories about Mother Theresa’s doubts. It’s too long to paste the whole story here, but you can read my piece at Skepchick.
There are no easy answers. I’m glad you’re asking the hard questions.
Bill, God loves an honest heart….He knows your seeking Him and your questions and He will be faithful to give you the answers as you need them. We are in a continual growing process, we don’t know it all…
I think the reason we give the simple answers is because we understand and believe them to be true…but then trying to explain God…trying to explain the deep things of Him that He reveals to the believer is almost impossible. Like I told Hov one time, it’s like trying to explain color to someone who has been blind their whole life. It’s good that you are passionate about this right now, He loves us to seek with our whole heart and being…For me personally, I don’t need to know why He does things all the time..I just need to be obediant to what He asks of me, then I can rest in the fact that He has it under control. As far as driving us away, I’m afraid you’re stuck with me, this has been a real faith builder for me. i’m doing my own seeking right now and I guess the big thing for me since I attend a church that really does love on all people, was finding out the bad experiences that athiests have had with Christians..to the point where I didn’t want to be called one, but my faith continues to be strong, stronger even and I will keep on keepin on. I don’t think seeking out the hard things of GOd is a sign of lack of faith. It shows commitment and I’m sure He’ll say, “Well done, good and faithful servant.” when we see Him face to face. Thank you for your honesty!:)
[...] The Friendly Christian has a good post up, talking about his doubts of Christianity. He’s struggling with his faith [...]
Bill, the Old Testament God is full of wrath and blasts people at almost every opportunity. Sometimes literally. The New Testament God is fluffy like dice and wants everyone to love him and each other and to lie down with lions and stuff. It is as if they were two entirely separate stories that just happen to use the same character names.
I really hope that we have contributed to your questioning the dogma of your religion. Dogma is defined as “doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof” and humanity should never accept things without proof. Would you buy a house without proof of ownership from the seller? How about an electric guitar that you’d never seen or heard? The bigger an impact that something has on your life, the more proof you should require.
Now I’ll grant you that religion is more an idea than something tangible like a guitar or a house but do you question the policies of your chosen political party to see how well they mesh with your own ideals? What about a scientific theory? An axiom that works yet cannot be proven. Should you test the theory? Of course. How about a philosophy? Would you cite a particular philosophy without testing it’s logic, without arguing it’s weaknesses from every available angle?
Even if you don’t, do you think that you should?
Real faith should not be blind, it should be tested and stand up to those tests. There should be no better answer than the one that you believe in. Less than that diminishes yourself and diminishes the view that others have for your opinions.
As an example, often debated on religious web sites, I believe that evolution provides the best theory as to the origin of man. It has successfully stood scientific scrutiny for a century and a half and no serious alternate theories have arisen to challenge it. However, there are enough gaps in the theory to allow for a successor to it. Simply no-one has come up with anything better. I therefore believe that it is accurate.
To my mind this has not been the case with any religion that I have looked at. You have a different perspective though and may well be able to see things that I don’t. As long as your faith can honestly stand up to scrutiny then it will be strong, stronger by far than a faith that has never been questioned.
Can you believe that I was only going to leave a quick comment.
Hey there…
Nobody ever said it was going to be easy! Over the last two years or so I have been led by the Spirit to assist my nephew in trying to answer some questions for a “show me” non-believer and it sure has helped me in growth.
I am short on time right now; however, before I could leave I saw your post and well…you know how he works. I admire your faith! I am in awe of your stewardship, humility, and surrender. These, as you know, are nearly impossible for humankind to let go of; which I might add is what you’ve done.
I always try to remember this: Is what we see on an everyday basis the work of God or the real nature of men manifested? We were created with the freedom of choice. Just as in ALL things human, we are confronted daily with that freedom; are we choosing to follow and believe; or are we choosing to run with the pack here on earth?
I will try to get back to you this afternoon. Cheers! Pray, and remember: It is always okay to ask!
OMC
Bill,
As another struggling believer, I found so many of my own thoughts reflected in your post. You are doing the right thing by seeking a better answer than “God is good” or “Jesus died for your sins.” And bringing your search to light on this blog shows a commitment to the truth.
For now, all I can offer is that there are many believers struggling beside you. Thank you for what you are doing, brother.
One FC visitor had this to say concerning today’s post:
Thanks for the link, Skep! Check out the rest of the post here.
I acknowledge the fact that the above quote is true. My quest for answers very well could lead me away from my Christian faith.
I also acknowledge the fact that I am more passionate about my faith now than I ever have been before. Seriously, just thinking about it makes me smile. I love every second of this quest. I feel like I’m finally allowing God a chance to reveal himself to me. Call me crazy, but I also would go as far as saying that this very well could be the level of dedication that God wants from a follower.
Do I have any intention of walking away from my faith? No. Could it happen as Skepchick suggests? Yep.
I’m not super-Christian. I’m Bill. That’s it. Just Bill
There is nothing more that would give the enemy pleasure than to have Bill walk away from his faith. Those of you on this site which claimed to have known the living God and done just that, I believe the enemy had a huge party for you…..Romans 1:20 & 21 are very interesting to me..”From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities-His eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship Him as God or even give Him THanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. The result was that their minds became dark and confused.
All I can say is, as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
GG, I think that you have stumbled onto a common misconception regarding atheists. Namely that we secretly believe in god deep down but have chosen to reject him. I’m sorry but that isn’t the case. I spent many years examining my own belief systems (I still do) and, for me, there really isn’t a god. No god, no great enemy, in fact nothing supernatural at all.
Would I like there to be a great, loving and all powerful force who protects me and shepherds me through life, who takes me away when my life is over and gives me paradise forever? As lovely as it sounds I don’t think I would. I prefer life without a net, it makes it more precious to me.
I applaud Bill’s bravery in staring the idea of a life without god in the face. What answers he sees there are down to him and I hope, whether it makes his faith stronger or it leads him away from religion, that he gains happiness and peace from his experiences.
It’s all good.
You have to feel comfortable within your beliefs, or they’re not yours, they’re somebody else’s.
Wherever you wind up, it’ll be what’s right for you.
Actually Hov, I was talking about the ones who profess to have been Christians..I applaud him, to he’s quite a guy to take this on. If you choose not to believe it’s your choice, although I do believe one day there will be those supernatural events you talk of, as He will do everything possible to reach people before the end. The differnce is that belonging to Him now, we experience the supernatural every day. It’s quite a ride! I guess that’s the part that makes me sad, God will allow blinders on people who want blinders….I was just happy when they were lifted from me….
Not what I’m doing. I’m allowing myself to question my faith. I’m embracing the uncertainty and seeking answers from GOD through PRAYER and study. This entire phase, similar to this site, is being approached from a Christian perspective with Christian intentions.
I’m engaging God in attempt to strengthen my faith, not entertaining the idea of a Godless lifestyle.
I do, though, feel brave. I do feel like I’m stepping out onto a limb that many, if not most, Christians are too scared to approach.
Some Christians are prob worried for me. They may think I’m headed down a dangerous path that may inevitably lead me to a disbelief in God. I, however, feel that God will reveal himself to me like he never has before. And for that, I’m pumped up!
Every wise Christian leader I respect would teach a Christ follower to ask questions. Ask the tough questions. Don’t be intimidated. Don’t hold back. After all, God knows the questions/concerns of our hearts, right?
The God of the OT is very harsh…and very hard if at all to understand. But that is the reason Jesus laid HIS life down as the ultimate sacrifice so that the wrath of God would be satisfied. Now We have much more of a choice than the ones in the OT. I believe Jesus is God the son…I know I am out there..but it is my belief system and it is working. God now sees us through the perfect sacrifice made for us. That is actually what is to believed…
If God were what I want HIM to be, and would think and do things that I think…HE would not be God.
Bill-God is not going to let you go…you are HIS and bought with a price a very high price. I don’t expect everyone to get what i am saying. But I am created to believe in something..and this is my faith. I am a total goofball about alot of things…and wishywashy in other things, but this I am firm about.:)>-
God’s Gal, as I said in another thread, belief is not voluntary. I did not choose to not believe in God. One day I realized that I didn’t believe in God any more. I decided to be honest and acknowledge that I no longer believed, rather than pretending to believe or trying to force myself to believe.
That said, I think hoverFrog is onto something. Most Christians seem to not understand what an atheist means when they say “I don’t believe in God.”
When I was a Christian, I would say things like “I don’t believe in astrology.” What I meant was, “Astrology is real and very dangerous because it is evil and of the Devil. Therefore I don’t believe in it.” So when I heard an atheist back then say the didn’t believe in God, what I heard was “God is real, but I don’t like the rules in the Bible, so I am not going to follow God.”
But what atheists mean when they say this is very different. What atheists mean is this, “I don’t believe that God exists. There is no such thing. God is a fictional, make believe character, like the Easter Bunny. There is no supernatural, all powerful being who created the universe or who pays attention to my life. When people pray, they are talking to themselves or to an imaginary friend.”
It’s not a question of wanting to follow God or not, it’s that we really and truly do not believe that God is real. I know that is hard for many Christians to understand.
Darla said:
Wow. Do you really believe that? Why would you want to worship such a mean son-of-a-b*tch? How can you all say you love such a wrathful being?
writerdd-I do and adore HIM…HE made a way for us to approach HIM, through HIS own blood…that is not selfsih, that is selfless.
I understand that we may not see eye to eye..but I hear you out, and take it to heart that you genuinely feel that way. This is the way I feel. Peace out..got to get back to work…:-?
I remember that thread writerdd, and I don’t agree. You chose to walk away…if you really want to be honest you would acknowledge that part at least. I do understand what you are saying, you don’t believe there is a God and as I have stated many times as well, as a true believer and follower of God we experience the supernatural every day. Your telling me I don’t is a mute point. I believe also that my reference to the above scripture applies to you. You last statement about what Darla said is one of the many reasons I don’t deal extensively with athiests. Total lack of respect, but I choose to be here so I will continue on.
Darla: Amen sista!!!!You rock!
Bill,
I admire you so much. It is very hard to open your eyes and face the precipice that a thinking person’s faith is perched above. I don’t know whether you will hold on to your faith, but I do know that if you do, both you and your view of God will be changed. The easy answers are too easy. You know already in your heart that they are there to protect faith, not to describe the truth. Keep asking questions. Now that you have begun, you must either find a way to reconcile God with reason and the real world or embrace the the alternative. Neither will be easy, but it is hard to pull the curtain again once you have seen the light outside.
Gods Gal, I’m not a liar and I really don’t appreciate you calling me one because my life’s experience does not match your doctrine.
Bill - Thanks for your honesty. I know I have questions as well. For me, these questions have always driven me towards God and not away from Him.
Regarding OT God versus NT God. God’s wrath has always been poured out on those who sin against Him. It has always been purposeful and never arbitrary. When Jesus came to die for our sins, God’s wrath was contained to eternity. Again, God never chose for people to believe what they will, he just determined the consequence for their sin.
writerdd - I am so confused by your statement of involuntary belief. If that is truly what you believe, than God does exist and you cannot dispute this, because you can’t choose to not believe.
Maybe you can enlighten me more on this.
hoverfrog - The dictionary definition of faith is, “confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another’s ability. belief that is not based on proof.” Based on this definition, to not see or have all the facts is to have faith. Faith is not tested by scrutiny or fact, it’s tested by action. This “real faith” you speak of sound more like belief. It’s kind of like…I have the facts, so now I choose this path. As with writerdd’s response, maybe I am not hearing you correctly.
Hov…OK, Honestly, I was not looking for this, it just jumped out at me. So i thought I’d bring it up. You said (forgive me, I do not know how to quote in those nifty litte shadow boxes) anyways…you said…
“humanity should never accept anything w/out proof”
referring to evolution you said…
“there are enough gaps in the theory…”
But…you “believe that it is accurate”, accurate meaning correct in all details, simply because…
“no one has come up w/ anything better.”
I might have read into it wrong but I read a contradiction….with all due respect of course Hover.
And, side note, the faith in God that we dispute so often here is Spiritual. It can not be hashed out in our intellect based on book smarts, cultured learning. The spiritual aspect is a whole different story and on a complete different level. I once heard faith defined as “risk”. I think that is very appropriate. We all take risks everyday…that is faith.
Bill, what makes you think your faith will ever be unshakable? That’s why it’s faith. I think that is why God honors faith so much - He knows the complexity of it. I can’t really describe it - like I said my intellect can’t wrap around it.
I am not here to fight with you or anyone else writer dd, an I apologize if I offended you….but I suppose you think calling my God a son-of-a-b*** is ok? I think there needs to be some mutual respect here…..thanks!
Bill
I felt compelled to respond to your heartfelt and honest posting about your difficulties regarding your faith or perceived lack there of.
I was very much like you at one point in my life.
You see I was raised in a Roman Catholic family. As I adolesced; I could not reconcile the nature of the Universe as presented to me by Catholicism and Science.
It took me many years to get over my perceived unworthiness in the eyes of a vengeful God. 8-|
Finally, I came to the realization if not conclusion that it was the anthropomorphizations of God that were the problem!
Why is it that some Christians attribute all the worst of human behavior to a supposed supreme being? Could a supreme being perfect in every way REALLY be ‘jealous’ or ‘angry’ or somehow be mollified by the subservience or groveling of his creation?
I realized that I was an atheist with respect to Zeus, Pele, Odin, Mardock, Ra, so why should I give special dispensation to the judeo/christian deity? The answer, was I was conditioned NOT to question.
When I say I am atheist I’m am NOT saying definitively: “THERE IS NO GOD”. How could a a temporal being with limited senses ever definitively make such a statement? What I am saying saying is the that the God’s described by most religions are logically and intuitively absurd.
I think we as a species need a new religion…one that is based on reason and compassion.
Bill, if there is a God, I truly believe that YOU have absolutely no reason to fear. Honesty is a good thing!
Sincerely,
Robert
Leominster, Mass.
Ever had the good fortune to read some Marcus Borg? (The Last Week, Reading the Bible Again for the First Time, Meeing Jesus Again for the Firs Time…)
And then there’s Real Live Preacher, at http://www.reallivepreacher.com - great stuff…
Personally, I’m probably moving over to secular humanism…
When I say I am atheist I’m am NOT saying definitively: “THERE IS NO GOD”
Hi Robert, I guess this is where I get confused, when I look up atheism in the dictionary, the only definition in there is “denial of or disbelief in the existence of God.” I’ve heard others say this as well….could you please just expand a little on what atheism is to you?
Dan Barker’s “Losing Faith in Faith” is a really good read.
Gods Gal
I think these is so much confusion over what atheism is and what it isn’t…
What you have to realize is that most dictionarys are written from a decidedly “Christian” bend. So naturally Atheism is going to be given a rather negative connotation.
Some will tell you there are strong-atheists, weak-atheists, atheistic agnostics…it’s all very confusing!
I can’t speak for everyone…
All I can tell you is what ‘I’ am and that’s beyond the scope of Bill’s concerns here…
If you really are interested in what I am feel free to visit my blog entry here.
You can comment to me there if you like!
Sincerely,
Robert
Hey Bill.
I just posted a long post about why I think the rejection of the sincere possibility that one might be wrong about God, that their beliefs might not be justified, is in my mind immoral.
So as a contrast, I just want to say that you being honest and questioning and open to (at least) self-criticism and change, wherever that may take you, and even if you want to keep the door of non-belief in particular solidly shut, is the best sort of antidote to what I was talking about.
As a non-believer who, I won’t lie, finds a lot to criticize in religious belief, I’m still not to the point where I want, as it seems many atheists these days do, religion to just go away. I honestly don’t care, in the end, about what people believe: I care about what they do and how they justify those actions to others, understanding that we don’t all believe what they believe and, just like they aren’t likely to be converted, we aren’t either, so we’d all best just find some way to live happily with each other.
So I’d be more than happy just if belief in general looked more like yours and less like the “Righteous Response Squad.”
Gods Gal: dictionaries generally list several meanings, and in good dictionaries, you’ll often find “one without god belief” which is how most atheists see atheism insofar as a big tent understanding of it. Dictionaries are guides to common usage, and believers have been commonly defining atheists in all sorts of hostile and confusing ways (for instance, you’ll even find in some dictionaries that “atheist” means “wicked, immoral,” or that early Christians were considered atheists by the Romans)
Atheism is a category of exclusion: after you count up all the people who believe in God, we are the people who are left over. We aren’t necessarily anything like each other: we don’t necessarily have any beliefs in common, or any ideology in common. We’re just people: people who don’t have a specific belief (the belief in God).
Once you understand that, and stop trying to find a common “atheist” view of ANYTHING (even a common “atheist” view of religion and theism), then things get a lot less confusing. There are atheists who assert that there are no gods. There are atheists who are agnostic. There are anti-religious atheists and atheists who are very religious (just with non-theist religions).
It’s worth noting that the definition “denial of the existence of God” is a pretty biased definition: it implicitly assumes that there is a God and that atheists are denying it.
It’s also worth noting that “disbelief” can also mean “doubt in something” or “the rejection of belief” which means that even your dictionary is basically defining atheists as those who doubt the claimed existence of God or reject the affirmative belief that God exists: which is NOT the same thing as saying that they claim to know that no Gods exist.
Hi Bad
Very well spoken! You hit the nail right on the head.
Wasn’t it Dawkins who said that organizing atheists is akin to ‘trying to herd cats’?:))
Like you I really don’t care what someone believes or doesn’t believe. Once someone decides he or she has the hotline to the almighty and he or she is going to make it a mission to enforce a belief….that is my call to arms!
Robert
Hi Bad, I was just using the one I have here on my desk…again, there are several groups of several belief systems on this blog, some claim to have known God and now don’t anymore, some just don’t believe there is a God, some believe there is something but don’t want to call Him God…so I’m just trying for some clarity!
Thanks for your input it helped.
Robert: I undertand that trying to convert you would be like you trying to convince me there is no God…just wouldn’t work…;) Just trying to understand is all…Thanks!
Hi Gods Gal
I think we can all agree that the world could do with a bit more understanding…if not understanding….maybe some genuine tolerance.
Robert
See? We can agree on something!!!! LOL
That and we’re all human…..
:d
@Robert…
I read that list. Extremely informative…especially for a “rook” like me!
What makes me crazy is when people try to call atheism a religion. I don’t remember who it was who gave my favorite response to that, but here it is:
“Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.”
Hi Gods Gal
We are indeed human…and that’s a good thing!
I’m spiritual in a weird sort of way…
We humans have 5 senses that we know of. Everything we know or think we know is based upon information provided to us by those senses.
What else do we have really? I have to trust my perceptions of the reality as provided by those senses. Sometimes I read a book where someone proposes an explanation for some aspect of the state of reality we all seem to share. Now this is where my faith comes in, I have to have FAITH that this person is reporting HONESTLY to me the evidence he or she has for the statements he or she is making. In my experience those that are most successful at explaining reality are practitioners of a method we have come to call Science. It is my contention that HONEST Scientists do a better job explaining to me the world revealed to me by my senses than the Holy Books of religions. Science is not a dogma, it’s self correcting and it has been amazingly successful at explaining much of what we sense around us. Those who deny this haven’t done their homework.
Has Science explained everything? No. Are there gaps in our knowlege? Yes.
Does that mean I have to throw the whole scientific endeavor out? NO!
Science is a tool! This tool can do great things, like cure disease, give us computers and telecommunications. it also gives the means to destroy ourselves utterly if we misuse it.
I have chosen to couple the method of Science and Reason with the human capacity for compassion and love.
Couldn’t we make the argument that if we are the creation of an all knowing, all powerful and all good Deity, that such a being would want us to use the brains we have been endowed with?
Where is the sin in using our science and our compassion to make a meaningful life for everyone on this planet and allowing every individual to search his or her own purpose?
Robert
InWorship, here’s what I mean. And no, this does not lead to the conclusion that God must exist.
I’m going to tell you something.
1) I am a married woman and am 45 years old. I have red hair and I wear jeans and t-shirts every day.
Do you believe it or not? Why or why not?
How about this one?
2) I am single woman with long black hair and brown eyes. I wear high heels and dresses and I work as a model.
Or this one?
3) I am a 33 year old man about to be executed. My mother was a vrigin. She never had sex before I was born. A spiritual being came to her in the night and impregnated her.
Or this one:
4) I am a fat man with a white beard. I live at the North Pole. I wear a red suit and every year on December 24th I ride a sleigh around the world and give presents to nice children, and leave a lump of coal for naughty children.
For each of these things, can you just choose to believe it? I doubt it.
But you can’t and don’t choose what you believe. When you read each of those statements, you either thought it was true or false based on your personal experience and things you have learned throughout your life. What you believe is only as good as the knowledge you have.
I could not more choose to believe in God at this point in my life than I could choose to believe in Santa. Think about it, could you choose to start believing in the Tooth Fairy again just becasue you decided you wanted to? It just doesn’t make sense. And I don’t think you can choose to stop believing in God either.
That said, if you don’t believe, you can choose to supress that doubt and unbelief, hoping that will go away, or you can embrace it. What you DO is your choice, but belief itself is not a choice.
The Bible’s definition is “The substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”
There are two meanings to the word. One is to believe without evidence (I put belief in the supernatural in this group), the other is to believe based on experience. I believe in my husband (ah, now you know what is true from my previous post), becasue he’s proven himself to be faithful and honest in all of the years I have known him. Like respect, that kind of trust is earned.
I respect you, Gods Gal. I don’t have to respect your God.
Robert: Before I answer fully, could you answer one thing for me…I’m just curious…do you think you or science could explain everything that you do see?
Very interesting thoughts. I have had those myself at times. But two books helped me with my questions. One is The Zen Commandments, and the other is How to Pray without Being Religious. Both help you take your faith to another level, and communicate with your Lord in today’s fast paced “stop the world I want to get off” days.
thanks writerdd: I like to hear what you have to say, knowing what I believe tho you have to know that I believe we are one, so an attack on Him is one on me…sorry I responded so poorly. My friend on her blog today said that she can’t control what people say, she can control her response. That spoke volumes to me and how I conduct myself…..:)
I agree, and I wish you the best of luck. Any faith worth having is one you should question and think about.
Crikey, go away for a few hour and suddenly everything takes off without me. That’s what I get for living in a different time zone. I see a couple of questions were aimed at me so I’ll try to clarify where I can…even though this isn’t my blog.
Firstly Bill, you said “I’m currently able to view Christianity through the eyes of an Atheist.” which I took to mean that you were looking at life without God. If that strengthens your faith then great, if not then that’s great too. I was just saying that it’s brave to attempt it.
GG, if I ever experience anything supernatural I’ll be sure to let you know. I would prefer to search for a logical explanation before attributing anything to the supernatural though so don’t hold your breath.
You say that God will allow blinders on people who want blinders and I think that people will wear them so that nothing will interfere with their view of the God that they want to see. Now I don’t say this to cause offence because you clearly have very strong views which you are perfectly entitled to. I just see people who have faith as suspending their disbelief rather than seeing something that I cannot see.
Darla, you make a point about God keeping hold of Bill. Would you mind elaborating as it isn’t clear to me what you mean.
Writerdd, that is precisely what I meant. I’m actually a little surprised that there is any room for interpretation here but we live and learn I suppose.
inWorship, the concept of faith isn’t alien to me but even faith must be based on what we have learnt. Otherwise it is not faith but insanity.
Tam, evolution is a scientific theory that fits all the facts that we have available. It is not a proof or a law, you cannot use evolution to predict how a species will change only to examine how changes have occurred. It is perfectly reasonably to assume that amendments to the theory will arise or even that a new theory will replace it. However, no new theory may ever arise and, as evolution works so well, I continue to put my faith in it. Does that clarify my point?
Your point about spirituality and risk is well made but would a rickety rope bridge be preferable to a well constructed suspension bridge when crossing a river?
writerdd - I hear what your saying and I see how based on your life and knowledge, right now, your beliefs are set. I don’t believe that way and I am going to continue to disagree with you on your understanding of belief and faith. Based on my life and where I am at, belief doesn’t need fact and trust/faith doesn’t need experience. I have believed and trusted many things in my life. Maybe I am dumb to do so, but I am content with that.
By the way, I don’t know you at all, so I choose to believe that you are #4. It just makes me smile. Besides, that is all I know right now.
hoverfrog - Thanks for a little clarification. I just think that is your take on faith. As I read all of our definitions of this word, there seems to be different interpretations. One aspect of faith for me is the complete unknown. So, faith can be lead by absolutely nothing but a choice. I agree that faith deepens as it proves itself. But, faith and trust for me are things to be given when it comes to a relationship with my God.
Welcome back your Hovness…;))
Crikey! I love it, I’m making a Hov lingo sheet….
Ok, I won’t hold my breath:-& But if I truly wore the blinders you’re speaking of, I wouldn’t be at this site…the views and opinions I have come to are from real experiences…they are not from someones opinion….they have really happened…completely wiped out any disbelief I could have held onto…that’s the cool part. And, about the bridge…. Pete walked on water…a rickety bridge is nothin!
Gods Gal
I feel that everything that happens in the natural or physical world has a natural or physical cause. Just because WE cant understand it now or ever doesn’t mean it is NOT explainable.
There are somethings that Science cannot explain….yet. There are things that science will not explain before I die. Does this bother me? NO….and I am OK with not knowing.
Now if you are asking me about the super-natural…I have to ask what is it you would define as super natural….
Ciao,
Robert
writerdd-#1 is my guess or that could be me LOL mmmmmmm
hover- while writing to Bill earlier..what i mentioned “God will not let go of him” I really believe that. Once we take that step of faith to believe in HIM and what HE has done for us, I don’t believe HE lets go. So we can walk away if we choose, but HE will be waiting for our return. We really can ask HIM anything, and scream and cry and throw things if that is what is up…but HE doesn’t stop loving us, and we can return. Totally cool-unlimited do-overs! I for one need lot of do-overs.
Thanks is just what I believe and I think Bill does too, and I love that HE is so honest. IF Christians are honest, we all have days when we just want some solid answers, and then we have to believe again that HE is working on our behalf.
Go ahead..call me whacked, or whatever. But I am not thrashing anyone for what they believe. I am holding on to what I do because I have tried lots of religions and the lack of religion…and being a Christ follower works for me. ~o)cup of java dude? I always enjoy your honesty too.
GG = I want to walk on the water too!
Hov - Lots of “well constructed” bridges collapse. So either way it’s a step of faith - both being man made I presume:)>-
I know what you mean…I left for awhile and BAMM! Bills got a HOT one goin on in here!
GG - I’m with you on an insult to God is an insult to me. I would feel the same if I shared a story about my daughter doing something horrible and someone who didn’t know here called her a b*%#@! for it - it would be very out of line…
Hi Robert:
Supernatural meaning something that trancends laws of man or nature, spiritual matters…
Going with your line of reasoning, there are things about God that I cannot explain, yet, there are things I won’t be able to explain about God before I die…I’m ok with not knowing……
Hi Gods Gal
“something that tran(s)cends the laws of man or nature, spiritual matters…”
Can you give me an example of such a phenomena? I have been a member of the human race for more than 38 years and I have to say; I’ve yet to experience anything that is by your definition super-natural.
I am not trying to be flippant or pedantic here. I really would like to know if you’ve experienced something that is truly SUPER-NATURAL….and how would you know for certain?
Ciao,
Robert
GG, you make me smile. Hov lingo indeed, tish and pish.
Darla, I don’t think that you’re whacked (is that even a proper word?) but I’m struggling to understand what you mean. Remember that the very idea of trusting in a being where you have absolutely no proof that he exists is alien to me. As is the concept of not questioning something. If an answer doesn’t satisfy me then I’ll keep plugging away until I get a decent one.
Coffee would be great. Strong, black, with no sugar please.
Well, you just said that you believe in things that are unexplainable…wouldn’t that trancend laws of man or nature? Yes, I have personally experienced what I supernatural, although I could not explain it to anyone,especially a non-believer. I’m not in any way putting a non-believer down by saying that, it’a just that if anyone were to understand what I had experienced it would be another believer. I suppose you could say that when you truly seek God out, He gives you what you need, I flat out asked HIm if He was real and He showed me in a huge way….
But isn’t it also possible that a different person would have interpreted it differently, whatever it was? After all, people all interpret world events very differently from each other: why not personal events as well?
And many people in other religions certainly say that same thing about their experiences as well: they have experienced things that they say convinced them of Allah, or Vishnu, and so on.
I’d love to continue this but I’m five hours in the future over here (it’s all silver clothes and jet packs) and I have to get up for work tomorrow (well, today). I shall catch up then and see if we are any closer to understanding each other.
@hover…
silver clothes and jet packs, eh?
:))
You are the comic relief that this site needs. Thank you.
Gods Gal
Well….How can I argue with subjective experience!
Ever heard of the movie “Contact”? When I am confronted by person of strong religious faith whom I respect…such as you…I think of this line uttered by the character Palmer Joss at the end of the film:
“As a person of faith I’m bound by a different covenant than Dr. Arroway, but our goal is one and the same: the pursuit of truth. I, for one, believe her.”
Robert
Gods Gal,
I’d also like to know what it is that you experienced that was supernatural.
Robert asked what kind of thing you’d call supernatural, and your answer was that you experienced something supernatural.
You wrote:
But I don’t think he actually said that. Here’s what he did say:
Robert wrote:
I can’t speak for Robert, but for me when things are unexplained, that doesn’t make them supernatural. Once apon a time, nobody could explain the phases of the moon. That didn’t make it magic.
“I personally believe my questions are a sign of strength…they show a desire to know God more.”
I know exactly how you feel. This is how I used to think, and I was so confused about why Christians around me didn’t share that view. In fact, I was a religious studies minor in undergrad, because I wanted to know everything about my religion, in order to strengthen it. Again, I was very confused by the attitudes of my Christian friends; they disparaged the classes I took at every opportunity and swore they would never take anything like them. I constantly wondered why they didn’t want to deepen their faith by learning more about it too.
Until I became an atheist, that is. I didn’t find satisfactory answers to all the questions I asked, and the things I learned in those classes destroyed my foundations of faith. Then I realized that asking questions is dangerous, and my friends wanted a safe faith. I can’t know whether you’ll find the answers you’re looking for, but I don’t think you should ever stop asking questions, no matter how dangerous it is! Trust me, you’ll be happier in the long run that way.
Best wishes and happy thinking !
I hesitate to say this because I don’t want to offend anyone and I know this is a hot topic, but I’ll throw it out there:
Christianity never made sense to me. Ever. Even when I first started looking into it there were just so many logical flaws and things that seemed to be an affront to reason. I was about to give up when some people suggested that I look into Catholic understanding of Christianity. When I did, it all made sense. (Some random things: Catholics don’t believe that people who don’t know about or don’t believe in God are necessarily going to hell, they don’t believe that everything in the Bible is to be taken literally, etc.)
Anyway, most Protestant versions of Christianity don’t make sense to me. I don’t say that to insult anyone, I’m just saying that for me, personally, there is no way I could have faith in God without the understanding I’ve gained through Catholic teaching. I actually have a deep admiration for non-Catholic Christians because I think that their faith is naturally deeper than mine.
Next time you’re at a book store pick up a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and flip through it and see what you think. You may also find the book By What Authority by Mark Shea interesting.
Ok, I’m gonna answer a couple things before i turn in….i don’t want anyone to think I’m avoiding….I do have a life ya know :d
#59 Bad: Since God is all things to all people, I’m sure there would be different interpretations….alot of times when our pastor is teaching we’ll be talking with different people afterwards and everyone will have gotten something different out of what he had said. Does that mean he didn’t speak? Nope…I have also had those dry wow that was trippy kind of experiences that I use to credit dead gods with, but once you experience the true living GOd you can spot a phony a mile away.
Hov: ok that means it’s 2 am there GET UP!!!!:-t By the way you have a beautiful family, it’s hard to think of them evolving from apes and ocean slime….
:-\”
Robert: Thank you for that…I think LOL
Ya know I really would love to share that, but the tone is one of tearing down the God that I serve and honor, besides the fact that it would be impossible to explain to a non-believer, I’m just not up for any more slammin’ today…just bein honest.:-c
Siamang: in comment 55 I explained exactly what I thought to be supernatural. By your same reasoning because we can’t explain it does not make it non-supernatural either….
I’ll answer some more when I can tomorrow….Kell & Jennifer…don’t stop searching….what can it hurt?
A lot of good thoughts here today, starting with Bill’s honest and open post. As I said before, I share his struggles and frustrations.
I appreciate the mostly civil discourse on this blog. Regardless of whether one is a Christian, atheist, agnostic, deist, etc. all of the sarcasm and vitriol (from both sides) does get tiresome. However, I feel compelled to address a common rhetorical trick I have encountered here and in other venues of discussion: comparing religious faith with belief in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, etc. I understand why people do it, but it is disingenuous and insulting.
Christianity, whether it is true or false, exists within a historical context. It’s influence has been consistent and pervasive for the last 2000 years, again for good or ill. And while the evils men have committed in the name of Christ have been discussed ad nauseum, nobody ever brings up the heroes of faith, such as Francis of Assisi, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, or Dorothy Day . While I will acknowledge that the idea of Santa Claus might make unruly children behave, I seriously doubt that belief in him, the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy would inspire people to live the kind of lives lived by Francis, Bonhoeffer, or Day.
I mean no offense to anyone and I apologize for the length of my post.
OK the sun must be up over there by now, where is everyone?
One thing about this that struck me last night as I was resting in my futuristic hoverchair while futuristic robots cleaned my futuristic dwelling was that faith really is an internal thing. Bill, GG and others have tried to explain that they “see” God in all things and experience events that they deem to be supernatural but only in respect to themselves.
I look to empirical evidence when trying to prove the existence of something. I look to logic to explain concepts and even when I see that someone’s logic is flawed I can appreciate the path they took to reach their conclusions.
With faith I don’t have these to draw on. It isn’t even like explaining an emotion because an emotion has chemical indicators and triggers, physical causes that can be measured even when they are illogical.
I’m afraid that the closest analogy to faith that I have is a delusion. Not in an insulting way but in “an erroneous belief that is held in the face of evidence to the contrary” kind of way. I’m sure that those with faith don’t see their beliefs as erroneous but I’m attempting to put it into my own logical framework so bear with me.
I can’t follow the logic of faith because it isn’t logical and I can’t see the evidence of faith because it is internal to the believer. Faith requires a leap, a suspension of disbelief, a risk even that there exists something greater than ourselves.
I’m sure that the idea is a great comfort to people. In the past I have described faith as a “security blanket” but people of faith (is that the term I should be using?) tell me that it isn’t that at all. Marx called it “the opium of the people”:
This makes sense to me but people of faith tell me that this isn’t that at all.
Where does this faith come from? Logically I can see that it is taught either by parents and role models or by peers. I can see the need to seek explanations in the mysteries of the world, to impose order on chaos. It escapes me that this faith has not been rejected as the mysteries of the world are explained.
This is my Atheistic viewpoint obviously. The world makes sense when I think people of faith are simply mistaken as I am sure that it makes sense in reverse. I would like a better explanation for faith if anyone has one and I’m quite happy to expand on my own interpretation of Atheism.
GG, I do have a beautiful family, thank you. It’s always good to hear how succcessful my genes are. It is hard to think that they evolved from simpler life forms and yet so very easy. I see that my children have characteristics in common with their parents and yet are much more than that. I am also more than the combined genetic material of my own parents. My brother has a genetic mutation that he has passed on to my niece. It’s a pretty useless one but it shows me that inheritance is realistic and that mutation is realistic. If you have mutation and inheritance then divergence is only a step away and divergent species are the keystone of evolution. :(|)
Hi Gods Gal
You said:
“it’s hard to think of them evolving from apes and ocean slime….”
This is not meant to be harsh, but that statement betrays just how ignorant you are of the whole concept evolution.
No credible scientist has EVER said that humanity evolved from apes! What they have said is that human beings and the apes of today have a COMMON Ancestor.
The underlying beauty of life on Earth is that if you go back far enough you can find a common ancestor between your self and EVERY life form.
Can you not see the beauty in that? Isn’t it just possible that this was all part of God’s plan?
There are segments of your own DNA that are the same as some within the DNA of a maple tree……if all life is the result of special creation…why the commonalities?
Robert
First of all Robert, that comment was a joke to Hov, if you look back on our blogs we often rib eachother that way….I am a bit more knowing than that….The only common thread I see in Creation, is that it was made of the same Creator….giving it a common thread. I do see beauty in it, everywhere actually. What I don’t see is anything improving because of time. By that I mean, everything once it is born is beginning the dying process…you may be able to cross-breed and eliminate certain factors that hinder causes something to becomes more durable, but you can’t really evolve creation beyond what the Creator has done. There have also been many studies done on how the earth must have been, mucy different then. Human beings are far beyond animals, they have a soul, animals do not.
Odgie…..thank you!:d/
Hov, I’m going to briefly rant…..ARE YOU NOT READING WHAT WE HAVE BEEN WRITING FOR THE LAST FEW DAYS???? Ok I’m done…lol
By the way, the sun is not yet up, it’s 4:30….I’m an early riser….
Anyway, if you are going to continue to try explain faith…you’ll never understand it..it’s unexplainable..that’s what makes it faith.
If you ever come to the states, look Tam and I up, we’ll show you around 3000+ in our little town who are more than willing to discuss the supernatural. People of faith is good =d> religion or anything associated with it is not….:-< Faith is not an idea to us….it is reality. See I can not relate to your statement on religion because I am not religious!!!!
I don’t think there is a better explanation of faith, at least one that would suit your curiosity. It’s something experienced but beyond human words at least for me. Quite the dilema…..:-? A question for you tho, where did it all come from?
Ahh Gods Gal, where in the body is the soul? What properties does it have? I’m certain that such a thing does not exist.
We have intelligence but so do other animals, ours is simply greater. We can use tools but this is not unique to humans or even to primates. We have language but it doesn’t really help us understand one another and it’s only an improvement on an ape’s grunt or a dog’s bark. I’m afraid that we are no different from any other animal. We are more successful a species than, say, tigers but no more special.
I’m sure you’ll forgive Robert for not being in one the joke but I suspect that he has read (as I have) very detailed accounts from fundamentalists who really believe that evolution is about apes turning into men. This is, of course, nonsense but there are people who genuinely don’t understand the concepts of a common ancestor.
Oh Hov, some of the things truly break my heart…I mean that sincerely…how sad to associate us with animals that way. I just don’t know what to say on that topic…I’ve studied it both ways and the Bible is much more logical to me of why we’re here, why they’re here and why we are to have dominion over them..Your soul is within you, as mine is within me….I just can’t agree with you here….:(
GG, are you saying that you believe that the human animal is fundamentally different from any other animal?
Human animal? I don’t even get that phrase….you mean biological makeup? i believe that we are created beings in the image of God, with an eternal soul and spirit…if your talking that we both have blood, cells, heart etc…obviously that is true…I’m talking about the internal and purpose of each….I don’t believe I evolved from an animal…
Odgie, I can’t speak for others, but for me it is a valid comparison. I was born again on Christmas Eve the same year I stopped believing in Santa. I just remembered this a few months ago and it was a startling memory. I exchanged belief in one supernatural being for belief in another. It was that simple. That’s why I use the comparison.
PS, Robert & Gods Gal, human beings are apes. We are animals. This is a wonderfully amazing fact and not something that should cause distress or be in any way heartbreaking. (Although my husband recently told me when he found out about sex and realized that humans are aniamals, that’s when he stopped believing in god. I guess that would be distressing to believers.)
Really? We share so many common features with other animals, from organs to DNA, that I find it hard to understand how you can not see that we are related. I do mean that humans are animals in the biological sense when I say human animal. I don’t see a divine purpose to humans at all because I reject the concept of the divine. Simply because we can express our emotions does not mean that animals cannot feel. Without getting anthropomorphic I would ask if you have witnessed the devotion of a dog before. Just because other animals have less developed brains than humans does not necessarily place them as separate or less than human. They are merely different.
I’m tempted to go off at a complete tangent here and discuss race and the bible with you but I’m conscious of how far we’ve already strayed off topic.
Bill, these are my thoughts based on your post -
You’re right that you’ve come to understand and share some of the concerns atheists have about God.
Since I think these are legitimate I’m glad you have and I think it will help you be a friendly Christian.
I wouldn’t say you *think* like an atheist or are anywhere near atheism.
Many many Christians have walked the path you’re on and not become atheists. Instead they have chosen to move from “Whatever the Bible says or implies about God I accept it unquestioningly”
to
“I believe God is good; I believe Jesus is good; I want to follow Jesus. But I am not going to unquestioningly accept anything. If anyone says “this is God and this is not good” I might not have an answer but I am going to hold onto what is good anyway”.
Are you familiar with the Bible verse in 1 Thess “Test everything and hold onto what is good”.
I think this is what you are doing.
I think the path you are on always changes Christians but many many times I’ve seen that rather than changing them into atheists it sort of rubs the hard edges off their faith and makes them kinder gentler believers.
Anyway, if you believe in a big God then there’s no need to worry about where you’re headed because I’m sure he isn’t worried about it. The Bible makes such a big deal about honesty that I can’t imagine, if God exists, that he could be upset with people who are asking questions in order to understand what is true.
@Helen…
Thank you. >:d<
Hi Gods Gal
Well clearly I have egg on my face! I’m sorry if I implied that you don’t understand the concepts of evolution.
That said…
I find it interesting that people of faith accuse me of being arrogant. I happily place myself withing the animal kingdom.
Yet some people of faith seem to think that we are privileged somehow…that we by divine edict have ‘dominion’ over all that we can play ‘GOD’ over all other life forms. Some how these same people think of animals as ‘tainted’ and not nearly as valuable as a human because we have something that no one has EVER seen or measured or contained…a soul. Whose being arrogant here?
I’m curious, what do you find so horrible about the concept of humanity being the result of 4 billion years natural selection? As Carl Sagan so eloquently said: There is an unbroken thread that stretches back from what we are now to first instance of life on this planet? It’s stirring and elegant….and it makes life so much more precious to me than the backward creation myth from writers who didn’t even know that the Earth went around the sun. Do I fault those writers for not having the same knowlege that we do now? Of course not! They were trapped in their own time and cultures. We have the benefit of modern understanding. To turn our backs on modern knowlege and to embrace ancient mythology as infallible seems to me to be a HUGE mistake.
The word faith is bandied about some much by pastors and politicians alike…but I don’t think any of them truly understand what it means!
A religious faith is a set beliefs held to with passion and zeal and without the need for proof.
So why do people who claim to have faith feel the need to try to justify it by twisting science to fit their already preconceived notions as read from their particular flavor of the Bible?
You are a person of Faith…wonderful! I am happy for you…but stay the hell out of the Science class…because science has nothing to do with faith and vice versa.
I also have to ask you one more question GG…
Had you been born in a country like Saudi Arabia…what do you think your faith would be? Can you honestly sit there and say to me that you would have bucked the trend and because a Saudi Christian?
Think about that…compare yourself to a devout Muslim who believes as strongly as you do that HIS faith is the REAL one. In his view, YOU are the infidel. What is responsible for him being a Muslim? The luck of the draw! He was born in an Islamic country. Your draw had you born in a predominantly Christian country.
Robert
I know Hov, we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this…my views are more of this nature… Yes, I understand the loyalty of a dog…While I understand that we are similar biologically, our purpose is completely different and we were created to have dominion and care for the animals. You can tang if you like…Bill’s on another day….LOL
Writerdd…
I am well aware that humans are considered part of the primate family. What I was trying to convey to GG is that Humans and the apes of today have a common ancestor. Also I am proud to consider myself part of the Animal kingdom… some of my best friends are animals…love ya Menkus!
So pardon the pun but, you are preaching to choir here!
Robert
Robert, obviously we have difference of opinion and I’m not going to sit here and argue with you K? I don’t play God with animals I have respect for them. I happen to work in a place where I am blessed to see things like bald eagles, mink and alot of wildlife throughout the day and they are awesome creation to me. Also, I don’t twist science to fit anything I believe….I believe and stand on the word of God..period. No one has answered my question by the way, with your need to have answers to everything…..surely you must know where it all came from? Oh, if I were born in Saudi Arabia, (since I don’t believe my faith is because someone said I had to or pre-conditioning but because of divine intervention), and the Lord called to me, I would have darker skin but the same heart for CHrist. There are Christians everywhere….not just the US.
I’m sorry GG but you seem terribly homo-centric. It isn’t a great leap from where you are (God made man in his own image to have dominion over the beasts and the land) to separating human beings into sub categories. From that you can easily see the position of one sub group as inferior to another.
Slave owners believed that their slaves were clever animals but that they lacked the intellect to cope without “masters” to rule them. Utter bollocks of course but people will use any authority to justify themselves.
I see troops in Iraq who think that the people that they are “liberating” are less than human. Part of the military training to kill another human is to dehumanise them so that you have less empathy for them. How much easier is it if they look different from the people in your community? How much easier is it if they speak another language? How much easier is it if they don’t follow your God when your holy book says that God made man in his own image?
What about when a person fails to follow God’s rules. Do you view homosexuals as less than human? What about Atheists? I’m being deliberately facetious but you must see my point?
If we can fail to empathise with our fellow humans how can we empathise with animals who, after all, look and sound very little like human beings. Yet an animal can feel things like pain, happiness, loneliness and loyalty. Certainly they are different from humans, I’m not disputing that.
The attitude that humans are the “God given” rulers of the world has caused innumerable ecological disasters, massive over farming and destruction of entire species and habitats. If we were to see ourselves more as caretakers of the world rather than its masters then the world would be a better place to live in. It may actually survive for my grandchildren to appreciate.
Hi Gods Gal
I think we are indeed going to have to agree to disagree…
I do think you are deluding yourself if you think that you would still be Christian in the Muslim world.
There are 2 BILLION Muslims in this world who are as fervent in their belief that they are RIGHT and YOU are wrong.
Personally, my view is that the Muslims AND the Christians AND the Jews are ENTIRELY and EQUALLY wrong.
I choose to use the brain I have, evaluate the evidence presented to me and to be intellectually honest with myself and those I deal with.
If I am to be damned, then let me be damned for what I really am!
In your own view…God doesn’t make mistakes…how could he? God is all knowing, all powerful, and all good.
He knew of me and who and what I would be long before I was born….and he knows the outcome of my meager little life.
Now you will probably make some argument that God allowed me to be born to give me the opportunity to repent of my wickedness in the course of my lifetime…
Why bother? He already knows the outcome! Doesn’t he? If he doesn’t then he is not all knowing. If he knows the outcome and chooses to let me go down the path to eternal damnation, then he is a sadistic S.O.B. that enjoys torturing for eternity those that are somehow ‘defective or inferior’ much as a bratty child fries ants with a magnifying glass…that kind of disqualifies the whole ‘all-good’ clause.
I really feel that we are off topic here…
The bottom line is we are both firmly entrenched in our own positions. I have no illusions that I am EVER going to weaken your faith… and on the flip side, I can assure you that no amount of faith will EVER weaken my reason and logic.
What Christians have to realize is this …we atheists and freethinkers are HERE and we will no longer sit quietly by and let people of faith dictate to us anymore.
That’s all folks!
R
Bill you’re welcome
Who am I to comment on God, but, I’m going to anyway
I don’t think God wants you to be afraid - I don’t think the fear is from him.
Back when I was a Christian I once heard this very useful distinction: vague feelings of fear, discomfort, guilt or whatever aren’t from God. When God wants to convict you of something he will show you exactly what it is so you can deal with it and move on.
That made a lot of sense to me.
GG, I completely missed your comment with the question in. Sorry. However now that I’ve read it I must confess to not understanding it.
“Where did it all come from?”
Are you talking about faith or everything?
As everything is an awfully big topic I’m going to stick to “Where did faith come from?” and tell you that I don’t know. I’m trying to reconcile our particular definitions of what faith is and need to do that before I can answer your question.
I think that the belief in the supernatural came about by repeated story telling by primitive humans trying to explain the world to themselves and others. It seems to be likely but its only a theory. I have no proof. We have brains that can be fooled and instincts that may trick us.
Have you ever been afraid of the dark? Was there really a monster hiding under your bed? Do bears really come out and eat you if you step on the cracks in the pavement?
Perhaps at one time the darkness really did hold predators who might eat your ancestors. Perhaps it was prudent to check for snakes or scorpions under your bed. Perhaps old cobble stoned streets were treacherous to walk on. Humans invest stories to help them get through life and to explain things. I’m just saying that somewhere along the line the distinction between fact and fiction got blurred and people really started to believe the stories.:)
Hov: I really can’t even relate to where you are going here…Your examples of slavery and Iraq are exactly what I am talking about happens when people catagorize humans as animals. They are treated as such. I don’t view any human being less than human nor have I ever implied or stated such a thing. I don’t know where you got that I feel that way.
Robert: what you think and reality in my life are two differnt things, I stand on the fact that if God called me in a muslim country I would be a Christian. Yes, He does know the outcome, so do I for that matter, I’ve read the book. Your disregard for has zero impact on my faith or life and there are millions of Christians who agree. I am not attacking your belief or calling them SOB’s which seems to be common among you guys. That right there would keep me from ever wanting to be like you. When did discussion turn into dictation…it’s not up to me whether or not you spend an eternity in hell, it’s your choice. If you don’t want the opinion, you really shouldn’t be asking it. Still, no one has answered my question…where did it all come from?
sorry it juat requires more faith to believe in evolution than to believe in God…my brain is pretty small…no can do:-?
GG, I know that you don’t. The implication is that there is a danger in the arrogance of believing that you (the plural you) have a “God given right” to rule that we could lose sight of the fact that we are no more superior than any other life form. I’m not calling you a racist slave monger. Heaven forfend that I would do such a thing. I am merely stating that it isn’t a stretch to get there when you assert the superiority of humanity over any other life form.
You see if people think that it is alright to treat animals badly and then they categorise some groups of humans as animals then we end up with slavery and prisoner beatings, summary executions and violent war crimes. Accepting that animals are our cousins in nature hopefully makes us treat them with more respect and so each other with more respect.
Can you see the benefits of this sort of paradigm shift?
I have a friend from Canada who is descended from Native Americans. She tells me about her work with the healers in their communities and about their attitudes to life. Although I don’t believe in her spirituality I have enormous respect for her. Their gods are the spirits of the animals and their people and of nature itself. The know that they do not rule over nature but are part of it.
Well I’m with GG. In no way have I ever mistreated an animal out of cruelty. I don’t think Christ Followers do just because they believe God has given them dominion over nature. Part of that dominion has included wild life rescue involvement of Christians - dang, we even recycle too:d/ Trying to lighten it up around here! So are you a vegetarian Hover? It seems you would be. Not looking for a debate - it’s just a question:)>-
Gods Gal
You ask: “Where did it all come from?”
I will assume you mean: “Where did the Universe come from…?”
Which is akin to: “why is there something rather than nothing..?”
You want my answer to this question?
Here it is:
I DON’T KNOW
and you know what…
neither do you…for certain anyway.
The difference I see is our approaches to dealing with this biggest of all questions.
You can claim that the Christian Bible has the answers…but what is the basis for your certainty in that claim?
I am asking you for the epistemological basis for your acceptance of the claims of the Bible. You cannot use the Bible to justify itself as the word of God. That is a circular argument. So all you really have in the end is simple blind faith that what it says is true. How can you say to an equally devout Muslim that your Bible is true and his Quran is false? The Muslim will claim that Allah speaks to his heart just as you claim Jehovah speaks to your heart. Whose claim is more valid? They are equally valid because they are assumptions of faith and cannot be defended with reason.
My approach is different
Observe and survey the natural world and make proposed explanations based on those observations. My fellows will them test those explanations rigorously. Scientists call an explanation for observed phenomena a THEORY. Theory does not equal GUESS!
We use Newtons theory of gravity to predict the orbits of planets and the flight of rockets. It works VERY well. Late in the 19th century Einstein had his genius moment and he wrote the General Theory of Relativity. It better explained the movements of all objects in a gravitational field at ALL speeds. That doesn’t mean that Newtons theory was thrown out. Indeed, for most current human applications Newtons theory works just fine! However at speeds near the speed of light you’d better have a more accurate theory.
We have computers today because we have a deep understanding of a phenomena known as Semiconductor THEORY! Without an intimate understanding of electrons and their properties there would be no such thing as the Pentium Processor.
Right now The Theory of Evolution is under attack by those who feel threatened by it. But Mr. Darwins basic idea, speciation through adaptation and mutation is VERY secure. There is NO OTHER theory that comes close. Does that mean we have ALL the transitional fossils? Nope! But we have many! To be fair scientists have only been at this endeavor for a 150 years or so. Even still we may never find a transitional fossil for every species. Even so, the theory is on firm ground and barring some revolutionary discovery it always will be. And you know what…if that happens I will admit I was wrong…Because that is the heart of Science.
Where did it all come from…beats me…
But I tell you this I have a heck of a lot of fun speculating about it.
I know you have a deep seeded need to know there is some purpose for all this, truly I share it. However, I think it’s far deeper and grander than what the Bible tells us. I think that is there is a God he wants us to think bigger than that. Most of all to not be so afraid of the dark…
Also Gods Gal, you have not answered my question that I alluded to: “How do you reconcile the freewill of humanity with an omniscient, omnipotent and omni-benevolent God?”
You cannot have one without the other….something has to give. Either we are robots doomed to our fates….or maybe God is not what our ancient religions postulate he is.
You seem to be under the misapprehension opinion that I haven’t read the Bible. I have! Cover to cover several times. You are not dealing with some one who is ignorant of its claims.
Robert
Hi Darla
There is no faith involved in my ‘acceptance’ of evolution.
It does a far better job of explaining all the beauty and diversity of life on Earth than this phrase:
“God done it!”
Robert
Hov: I have so much respect for you….cyber hugs >:d< out of any other athiest here, you I will listen to…
I treat animals with alot of respect, I am the type of person that if a bird runs into the window I will run out to make sure it is ok, I respect animals, and love to be in the wild and natural setting. By having dominion over animals I mean caretaker…there are countless times when I have taken in and taken care of animals that would not have survived otherwise. There have always been and always will be evil and evil people who abuse both human and animal life…I am not one of them. So, back to my other question, where did it all come from?:d
I thought evolution required faith until I actually read about evolution. Once I read a real scientific explanation of evolution it was like “Doh!” It just made sense once I allowed myself to actually think about it with no preconceived conclusions.
When I was a Christian, however, I hadn’t let meyself read Darwin or the writings of any modern scientists. I only read the anti-evolution tracts written by Christians. I was trying to enforce what I already believed and not to really be open to learn something that might contradict what I’d been taught all those years in Church. I thought these ant-evolution tracts were honest in their evaluation of the evidence. But it turns out they weren’t. I can’t say for sure if the authors were liars or must misinformed, but they were wrong about so many of their facts that it became impossible to take them seriously once I started to study on my own.
I have a totally different approach now. I read everything. I want to know what reality is about. I am willing to evaluate new evidence and new ideas. I don’t try to force everything to fit into what I already believe or to match up to what a special book like the Bible says must be true “just because.”
wow, I made a lot of typos. I guess I’ll take the rest of the day off.