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When Bill asked me to do this…there was some nervous laughter as I wrote back and told him I’d give it a shot….A friend mentioned OCD on her blog awhile back….and the more I thought about it (once she told me what it was) the more I realized that’s what I have. I get up, pray, have a problem, pray, need advice, pray….believing that they’ll be answered….without hesitation. Am I nuts? Well, before you begin answering that question, here’s what I’ve learned so far from this site, comparitively speaking…Christians claim to know what happens after they die, even though they haven’t been dead yet. Atheists claim to know nothing happens even though they haven’t been dead yet. Christians can spend hours explaining why they just know there’s a God, Atheists can spend hours explaining why they know there isn’t. Christians stray from their group throughout life, when they lose their faith…Atheists stray from their group when they need faith, Christians feel a desperate need to instill their beliefs in others and Atheists feel a desperate need to instill their lack of belief in others.
I don’t let a day of my life go by without the Bible, worship and prayer. When it comes to God, I am obsessive, and compulsive, is it really a disorder????
There isn’t alot of room for compromise here. Either we’re alone in the world or we’re not. Either we came about by chance or we were created for a reason. Either death is the end or it’s the beginning. In the case of of faith, it’s easy to overlook the most fundamental point of all, namely, that God is not an argument; he is not even a concept. God is a living being. He has the ability to know things, desire things, create things and to love things. He is fully aware and involved, He is alive. Why is that so important? Because living things don’t have to be proved, they can be shown. Can it really be that simple….I’m sure it won’t be…LOL
Ok, feel free to discuss anything, but be nice…we want to make Bill proud!! LOL
Popularity: 15% [?]
I think I have OCD too!! :d and I am happy about it! I think that is very cool that we all can meet here and air our differences. I do believe we are all human except maybe the “wise hoverfrog”.;) although I have seen that he has a heart!
All seriousness-if this is OCD that I have don’t fix me…I love the life I have and although some days totally stink..other days are priceless!
Hey I think a bunch of the readers and commentors on here have OCD in some form…LOL when I have time to be on here, no one comes…should I take this personally?:-\” naaaaa a little more coffee and I will just comment to myself..how is that for OCD? ~o)
:-\”:-\”:-w~o):-\”:-??
:)>- going to play on Hovers page and see what the magnificient Frog is up to and why no one is here…:-h
:-\”
Ya know Darla, I’ve noticed this on my blog and others when it comes to believers and non-believers alike. You keep it cute and light….lots of comments…you start digging and trying to get deeper into beliefs and you can hear the crickets chirping…..dunno:-?
I think if when they realize that I am passing them in numbers of comments they will stop me! LOL
or this might work too…
I know why my convictions want everyone to understand and believe like me…but why do atheists who don’t believe in God want others to not believe in God? I would like to understand their stand..
My GG is a Guest Author^:)^ Wow!
Funny you should write this cuz I was just pondering this same thought yesterday after church…where were you???:d
W/out physical, in the flesh, “proof” I can’t give an unbeliever, and I’m not speaking just Atheists, anything. I also am at a point where I don’t feel the need to prove Him! That is great! Because I always, always go back to our instincts. I’ve quoted the verse a couple times here already in Romans and it is the only time I never get a response back. But I will not argue Gods word - I don’t need to. I also do not feel the need to “prove”, or try to prove any other belief system wrong. I will live, I will interact, I will love, I will be respectful and gracious, I will be the best example of His grace and mercy that i can possibly be - that is my testament.
I have met some of the greatest people on this site. I feel so enriched and enlightened. I also feel that my relationship with God is deeper and more meaningful than before. So I am very grateful and very off topic…sorry:(
Oi, darla. You’re a menace, girl!
I find blogging and religious debate very obsessive but not exactly compulsive. I mean I almost never mention religion elsewhere unless I’m asked.
I’m going to stick on GG’s penultimate paragraph though and claim that God cannot be a living being.
Stolen from wikipedia:
Often scientists say that life is a characteristic of organisms that exhibit the following phenomena:
Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, sweating to reduce temperature.
Organization: Being composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.
Metabolism: Consumption of energy by converting nonliving material into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of synthesis than catalysis. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter. The particular species begins to multiply and expand as the evolution continues to flourish.
Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism’s heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.
Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism when touched to complex reactions involving all the senses of higher animals. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun or an animal chasing its prey.
Reproduction: The ability to produce new organisms. Reproduction can be the division of one cell to form two new cells. Usually the term is applied to the production of a new individual (either asexually, from a single parent organism, or sexually, from at least two differing parent organisms), although strictly speaking it also describes the production of new cells in the process of growth.
I think that you’ll agree that these characteristics are not godlike at all. :d
Hi Darla and Tam
What I think about OCD is: if it works for you, great!
My life seems to be about disciplining myself to be obsessive about meaningful rather than meaningless things - I guess that’s the point you’re making, God’s Gal: that it’s ok to be obsessive if you’re obsessive about the right things!
I guess it’s one of several point Helen…LOL8-} Can I blame it on large quantities of cold medicine??? I gues I don’t think of God as meaningless…and it truly worries me that people on this site do…especially the ones that I have come to know and form friendships with……I actually find myself spending large amounts of time worrying about them and their eternity….:(
Tam: I don’t feel like I have to explain either, just that if I keep presenting the reasoning and views of Christianity maybe someone will start thinking about it???? Maybe??8-|
Well it looks like it’s all about the estrogen on FC today :d/
Hi, this is my first time here. This is interesting becasue I just read a verse about this in Acts this morning.
Paul is making a statement to King Agrippa, and when he’s done speaking …
I think a lot of times Christians get into “persuasion” mode and we think we can argue people into faith. While that may work for a “seeker,” for the non-seeker, argument will not work. And like Agrippa in this passage, they just say “do you think you can persuade me in such a short time?”
I liked paul’s response - Short time or long, I’m praying that you will become what I am …
It’s one thing to be able to argue a point. It’s another thing entirely to put it in God’s hands and pray for them.
Estrogen?? Hey, I just got here, but I’ll do my best to balance it out!
estrogen…now there is a topic!
Helen-I actually agree with you, it all falls in one thinks is meaningless or meaningful. I love my OCD, and it does work for me.
I think we have scared the guys away, or they are thinking up something deep that will stump me. :d
Tam and GG-glad you could be here too, i don’t always have time to get on, glad someone came on with me!=d>Yay!
God’s Gal, yes, of course you don’t think time spent on God is meaningless…on the contrary!
I’m sure the atheists don’t want you to worry about them; but I expect they’re pleased you care about them.
Tam, maybe the guys don’t want to own up to having OCD
Darla, thanks for your response. I’m glad some other people showed up to keep you company!
I think you got it Helen!!! LOL:)) Maybe the guys are trying to PROVE they don’t have OCD by staying away…..You make me smile..
Am I the only boy? I had to bribe the moderator to let my posts through … apparently I’m a little light in the estrogen department (whew!)
I just found some guy comments in the moderation queue - wow, maybe this blog doesn’t like guys? I’ll tell Bill when he gets back
Anyway, comments released from moderation show up in the order submitted instead of all at the end, so you need to go back up to comment 9 and read from there again to find them.
Mike, shhh, don’t mention the bribe!!
Mike - Keep trying! I’m cheering for you!
Great passage and point too, by the way! Thanks for sharing that word!
YAY!!! Testosterone hath arrived…..Howdy your Hovness, glad you’re here!!! While He spent His time here on earth, He experienced most all of these…so I’d have to disagree.. SHOCK!!!!
Welcome aboard Mike!!! And thank you for that scripture! We get a little crazy at times, but one thing I love about this site is it is REAL people with REAL opinions…it’s refreshing! I don’t think anyone can persuade others to change their faith…I’ve just come to care a great deal about some of these people and that has become a greater burden in my heart at times than if they believe….glad you’re here!!:d
Bribe?? Did I say bribe? Oh, that was a, ummmm, typo. Yeah - I meant to sayyyyyyyy “brine.” That’s right! BRINE! I had to brine the moderator.
Not sure waht that means, exactly, but apparently it worked.
Mike, I can handle it once, but don’t make a habit of brining me, ok?
@GG
I am not sure what you are trying to say with this statement, GG. Is this an accusation?
As a living atheistic-agnostic, I have as yet not experienced death SO by definition I CAN’T know anything about what happens after my death. Because I base my knowlege on experiences, logic and reason I cannot possibly make any claims.
And…
Maybe I’m picking nits here…
But I for the record… I cannot prove a NEGATIVE. I can’t prove there are NO unicorns. But it’s not up to me to prove there aren’t. It’s up to the unicorn-apologist to prove there ARE.
Most atheistic types will go out of their way to state that they don’t KNOW anything about the existence or non-existence of God.
Just trying to clarify positions is all!
Cheers!
Robert
Hey Hover - When you think of “alive”, can that mean more than biological? Can you be alive in emotion…spirit?
:((
My comment is hung up in the moderation buffer!!!
R
Robert, I don’t see anything of yours in there…I’ve been obsessively checking it so I think I would have found it :d
So, does this mean I don’t have enough testosterone to be “hung up” in moderation…
ooohhh
@GG
I am struggling with this comment here, GG. Is this an accusation?
As a living atheistic-agnostic, I haven’t as yet experienced death. Because I base my knowlege on experience, logic and reason, I can’t possibly make any claims about what happens post-death.
For the record as an atheistic type, I make NO such claim that there is NO God. I cannot prove a negative. I cannot prove that unicorns don’t exist. It’s not up to me to disprove them, I haven’t made the claim. It’s up to the unicorn-apologist to PROVE that they do.
I simply apply the same reasoning to God. I’m looking for good reasons and evidence to accept the Biblical account of God. The accounts of the Bible are just not enough for ME.
Good post though GG, Well done!
I am I!
Robert
Hey Mr. I am I..hear me roar! kidding….I’m glad your testosterone kicked up enough to get you through…..I’m not accusing anyone of anything….just demonstrating the polar opposites we have as believer and non-believer….relax….;;)
Unicorns don’t exist????:((
See, God is real to me, so I feel the exact same way about you needing to prove His non-existence…:)) I know, you and I have talked before about your views, not all athiests feel this way….I understand where you’re comin from..peace out dude! :)>-
In Worship: No it means you have enough testosterone to blow through any existing barrier….
:))
@GG
Once again the channels of communication have broken down!
I didn’t say they didn’t because I can’t say definitively that they don’t.
I’m sure that if scour the forests of the northwest you’ll find your unicorn!
Robert
What happened to Hover???? Inworship asked an awesome question…….#25..
Actually Robert, I did see a unicorn once….Big Foot was running after it with a lasso…..yehaw!<):)
Speaking as a non-atheist, my understanding of real “educated” atheism is that it does not say there definitely are no gods. True atheists admit they can’t prove what they believe. They merely admit that they suspect what they believe to be true, given a lack of evidence to the contrary.
As a Christian, I don’t happen to share their beliefs, but I can no more “prove” there is a God than an atheist can “prove” there isn’t. And most will admit that. I think - like I said,I’m not an atheist myself, so I’m hesitant to put words into their mouths.
The issue, as I see it, is that the only proof atheists accept is scientific. And since God does not exist within scientific limitations, they lack the “tools” required to detect God, and they therefore (reasonably!) reject the notion. That doesn’t mean I agree, it just means I think I understand how they came to their conclusion, given their assupmtions.
@Mike
You make some very good points Mike. I think this speaks to the VERY different world views of theists and atheists.
I would qualify your statement above a little more by saying ’scientific’ includes observable and logical evidence.
Here’s a question for the theists here.
Do you get your knowlege of God from the Bible. OR Do you get knowlege of God through personal experience or revelation?
Or is it a combination of both?
I’d like to understand your theistic thought a little more!
Robert
For me, It’s both.
The Bible says that people get healed if they pray, yet I’ve seen young, strong Christians pary their butts off and still die of cancer. How does that work? I also know people who have been healed of cancer (no, I can’t prove it!).
The Bible also says that it is appointed for man to die once. So that must be a factor, too.
So my beliefs tell me to pray for healing, but my experience tells me that they may die anyway. Some Christians would call that a lack of faith. I call it faith - faith that I don’t understand everything, but I’m going to follow him anyway.
For me, there’s enough evidence that it’s true.
Robert:..For me it’s both. When I read the Bible it makes sense to me. You can get a room of believers together, read one scripture and I doubt that everyone in the room will have the same answer as to what it meant. It will mean different things to different people depending on where they are in their journey with God. That’s why they call it the living word. When I am truly searching in my life, I can pray, go to God’s word, and He gives me wisdom and understanding on how to handle different things that come up. I have also seen His healing power first hand, several times. Most memorable is when He healed my son, to the point where doctors were left scratching their heads….our faith and God’s grace is what healed him. He actually had more faith than I did during that time….but faith is contagious, and it taught me a great deal about what’s “real” and who we really belong to. It started small tho, I haven’t always been this way, but as God proved Himself faithful to me in the littlest of things, I gave Him more and He’s never let me down. Now I don’t hesitate in the least to go to Him, for myself or others…..:)
Mike O
Proving that would be an impossibility, so I would not be so ridiculous as to ask for such a proof.
Do you find it interesting that there has never been a spontaneous limb regeneration? Not trying to be a smart ass. I’m just saying it’s very easy to attribute a cure of cancer or diabetes to prayer. Spontaneous remissions happen ALL the time and medical science as yet cannot explain the hows or whys.
Seeing an amputee regenerate a limb, something humans are incapable of, would go a long way to my accepting an actively involved divinity!
Robert
@Gods Gal
I would never presume to disagree with your assessment of the nature of your sons recovery. If you say that it was your faith in God and His grace that healed your son, then it was.
I will even state that if one of my children were to be in the midst of a battle for life against a disease, I can assure you I would be praying for he or she to rally. But there in lies the distinction, I wouldn’t pray to a personal God. I would be trying to surround my child with love and positivity.
Do I have an concrete evidence that this works? No.
But it can’t hurt and if you were to do a study on the effectiveness of each method. I’d be willing to bet a large amount of money that each method would be shown to be equally effective.
Robert
Robert, if you were to pray for your sick child, would you not want the One who created that child and new every cell and hair on his/her head to be the one recieving the prayers? If you were praying for your child, who do you believe you are talking to? Or I guess what I’m trying to say is, why would you pray at all if you didn’t believe “someone or something” was listening and could make a difference?
Yeah, sponaneous limb regeneration would be pretty hard to explain away. I agree with you on that one.
I wonder why God doesn’t do that kind of stuff more. I have my theories, but it would be nice if, every once in a while, someones leg grew back. Let me tell ya … If I ever saw that, I would pray different!
@Gods Gal
You see this is where we part company. You are assuming that I believe that God personally created the Human Race and by extension my child. I don’t.
When I suggested that I would pray, it would not be to a personal God. It’s my view that prayer is a form of positive thinking.
The act of prayer is something very primal within the human psyche. Maybe the act of praying does more for the one doing the praying than for the subject of the prayer.
We all want to believe, in fact to KNOW that there is something far larger than ourselves that can intervene on our behalf.
With all the horrors of this world that I have seen…the brutality, the injustice, the unfairness…
It’s hard for me to accept there is a guiding hand.
I’m sorry but this is how I see it.
Robert
This is a whole great topic unto itself!
Don’t apologize, and sorry I said that the way I did. My world revolves around God, so I forget my language at times reverts back to speaking to believers…
:)>-
I agree the act of prayer is older than dirt….or as old as what He created from it….;)) You say you believe there is something….and that you would like to believe and know that there is something intervening,(?) so I guess I don’t understand why it’s so hard to give the something a name…do you believe in the “historic Jesus”?
I agree Mike, what’s your take on it?
I think this speaks volumes to free will and the heart and what that means in a Christian’s life. In my studying and beliefs, God is not interested in making us believe in Him or even giving us some sort of “proof”. He is more interested in our intent. He doesn’t want us praying because we’ve seen. He wants us praying because we believe. He doesn’t want us obeying a bunch of rules, he wants us to love Him honestly and because of that our lives our lived out in surrender.
Robert says:
I know it is a difference of beliefs (you and I). But, as a Christian, I don’t see why this is hard to accept. Christians believe there is a God(a guiding hand) to lead us through all this mess…created by us. That is something I would definitely want to believe in. It is easy for those who do not believe the Christian beliefs to say that all this horror is God’s fault. In fact we can probably come to some sort of “logical” conclusion that He did it all, but that’s not what the Bible teaches and that’s not what Christian’s believe.
Based on that, I would be pretty interested in what Christians believe versus believing that the “Christian God” caused all of it.
Helen- I only left for a few hours….YAY! everyone came out to play.
Hover (the wise)=)), you really are a smart guy! I only understood half of what you said. Why don’t you answer “in worship” and maybe I will understand better…ya know the menace i am and all:d
Mike-welcome!
InWorship: You need to write a book…seriously. When you explain things, they stick! Thank you!
Hover….where’s the frog?????
Darla: Thanks for coming back…I was feeling estrogen deficincy happening!!!!
WHERE’S MY TAM???:-t
Deficiency - D-e-f-i-c-i-e-n-c-y,,,geez8-|
as a believer in Jesus Christ, HE is the only way I can get through this mess of a world we live in. HE has already shown miracles on top of miracles, and still so many don’t believe. I don’t think HE is interested in performing for us to believe in HIM. HE said “by faith”, believe to see, spiritual eyes see what God is doing around them, and I do care that some don’t get it.
I do love this site, and I do love the honesty that goes on here.
I can not there are lots of things we take faith in that we do not see, stupid things like my car will start when I get in it, or flipping the light switch will turn on the light…I am not an engineer, and I can not fully explain why these things work, but it does not cross my mind when i activate them.
I guess i just hit the wall with why not believe in God, when we believe in so many other things that are not fully explained.
Sorry my OCD has kicked in again..got to love it!:”>
I’m here - but I’m really missing Ed this week! All week he’ll be gone - not good!
Good discussion here folks - keep it up! In other words…I haven’t been around much this afternoon and my brain is mushier than normal…so I’ve got nothing!
Well I do have this to say…When i see injustice - I blame it on the perpetrator. When a high schooler beats up another student, I don’t blame his parents - I blame the offender. This world does indeed suck at times and is ever expanding with hatred, violence and injustice…at the hands of the very people complaining about it. We’ve made our beds - we must lie in them.(:|
Good, now that Tam’s here, I can take a nap
I’ll be back later, I’m enjoying the discussion!
Tam- that was deep! and I agree… I don’t want to lie in it! I am choosing the high road
Just out of curiosity, where did you get this info?
i’d say close minded + narrow minded are different things…:d
if the teachings of Jesus were mainly philosophical musings with no religious ‘i am god’ claims, and if they weren’t attached to the old testament, which frankly often disgusts me (i’ll provide references if you like) in the purported role of god + what he tolerated - + sometimes even demanded - of his followers, i might be able to see them as a standard worth holding. i guess i just don’t get #1 why this god? why this way of worship? etc, #2 how does one extrapolate a decent moral code or standard from the bible without essentially ignoring large parts of it(mainly old testament)? or #3 why did it take for a god to become human to practise a moral standard? + is it not possible that trinity theories are wrong (even if you hold the Jesus stories as entirely factual), and that the only morals worth taking from the bible are of human construction?
@InWorship
You can check the works of Earl Doherty, Bart Ehrman and Robert Price to name a few.
Mind you I’m not saying that these guys are absolutely accurate. I am merely saying the raise some good questions and interesting commentary.
Robert
Ash,
Well…How about the fact that I was molested repeatedly as a child? Beaten, bruised and bled at the hand of many different “father” figures (I have physical scars as reminders today). How about the fact I was emotionally neglected and had a mother who never told me she loved me except once, written on a piece of paper? How about witnessing with my own eyes extra marital affairs within my own family? I could go on and on here but what I’d really like to say is - having gone through and enduring all of that as a child - I walked away “KNOWING BETTER”. Period! There was too much evidence of morality around me to teach me otherwise. Not to mention that “instinct” thing. So I cannot buy into your “logic” there…sorry…
ash - You would like to do what many would like to do and in many cases have done. Take what you like about God/Jesus and then discard the rest. In the case of Christianity, you take the whole. The Bible says, black or white, no in between. I guess that right there is partly to blame for our “narrow mindedness”
Robert - I will look them up and give them a listen.
I have a question for any non-believer on this site, and I really do want to know this…I’m not being flip here… Do any of you, or any athiest believe in sin? I mean crossing the boundries on moral issues? I’m not sure where to look up definitions of words for you anymore, I guess the dictionary doesn’t count according to former posts…but I’m just curious. And, how do you know the difference between good and bad…in your opinion?
@Tam, very glad you survived, let alone did it well, but the fact there are such sh*ts in the world makes a good case =((. not everyone is fortunate enough to have your brains and instincts, and many people just perpetuate the terrible examples they’ve been set.
@inWorship, nah (as i’m not christian), i’m more looking for an understanding of how different people who call themselves christian resolve or explain such questions.
@GG1, i believe in right + wrong, but not sin as that tends to be a religious thing, and often about absolutism. last time i answered this question it took about a month, so i’ll direct you to that convo…any more questions, feel free :d
ps, i join in at July 11 - the thread may sound political, but we mostly talk about ethics.
I reposted God’s Gal’s excellent question about sin and moral boundaries as Tuesday’s post, here:
How do atheists determine moral boundaries?
Please respond to that question on the new post. Thanks!
Sorry but I have only skimmed the comments but my window for blogging here is small till I get t’Internet reconnected at home
Not without biological life, no.
You may have to help me out and define what you mean by “spirit”. To me it means a temperament or a part of the personality that deals with how you approach life.
I would say that there is no need to prove a negative. The emphasis is on the person making the assertion. Given the available evidence there is no reason to accept that the concept of any deity is valid. It is much more likely that the idea is a human societal construct that fits our psychological need for answers. IMHO anyway.
That’s the OCD part for me. Sorry if that offends anyone but I see belief in the supernatural as a way that humans explained the world (life, death, seasons, everything).
@InWorship:
There is an awesome starting point for looking into the bible:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
The last time I started arguing about the historicity of the bible, I ended up quoting from “A Historical Introduction to the New Testament by Robert M. Grant”:
http://religion-online.org/showbook.asp?title=1116
which is written by a divinity school instructor !
@Gods Gal
Doesn’t feel very good DOES IT?!!??
I am going to assume that you are suggesting that were I to truly and freely open my heart to Jesus. Then He will come into my soul and give all the answers I desire. Is this an accurate assessment?
To that I will say this. That is not who I am. While I greatly respect much (but not all) of what Jesus taught or teaches depending upon your point of view. My feeling is that I do not require salvation by revelation through Jesus. At the same time I can respect much of His teachings like ‘The Sermon on the Mount’ there are other comments he makes that I do not agree with ‘turning ones back on ones family to follow him’. I’m not suggesting that you agree with that either.
But my point is whether most Christians admit it our not, they do tend to deemphasize aspects of their faith that they find less compatible with modern accepted morals. This is perfectly acceptable!
There are aspects of the Buddhist philosophy/religion that have application in and can sit perfectly well beside those of Christian tradition.
Narrowing our ‘accepted’ teachings to one religion while shutting out religious wisdom of other traditions could do a great disservice, if not outright harm, to the human endeavor.
From a very VERY early age I questioned much of what I was taught in CCD (Sunday School). It took a long time for me to shake of the guilt and my presumed unworthiness in the eyes of God. But i realized one day that: THIS IS WHO I AM!
This is what I am meant to be!
There are thousands of languages and cultures within the human family. How can it be possible that there is only ONE way to salvation?
These are huge questions! I don’t presume to have the answers. Some folks think they do, but do they really KNOW for sure?
Ask yourself this: If God is love as the Bible teaches us, could He, would HE, really condemn someone to an eternity of torment for simply being open to ALL ideas, for being intellectually honest in my search and for relying on the senses I have to interpret the physical world around me?
I cannot accept that.
Robert
ash - I will answer these from my perspective.
Because my life experiences and studying of the Bible, He has proven Himself to be true to me
Because my moral code is my moral code. the Bible speaks clearly to who I am to be as a Christian in Jesus. I understand you see a different god from the OT to the NT. I do not.
I don’t really understand this question, maybe you could clarify…
Ash: The point Tam is making here, is that everyone does have the instincts of right and wrong….she did more than survive her ordeal, she understood it was not the way a healthy human relationship and turned to the ONLY one who could help her. In turn, she has a beautiful marriage, and beautiful children who feel loved and respected in their home. Regardless of their bad choices, people DO know right from wrong. I didn’t and don’t expect anyone to think of sin as a religious thing, that’s kind of a mute point on this blog…… but again the point being that there is something in us wether we are abused or not, that tells us what is right, and what is wrong….
Robert: Respectfully, and please hear my heart on this…..you can read and study and search from now til the cows come home, but until you seek Him, and ask Him…you’ll always have the questions, doubts etc. The God we serve in not a God of wrath, although He has every right to be. We’ve discussed in length why He would have the right and choose to condemn people to an eternity without Him so I’m not going there again…..unless you want me to. The thing I love most about knowing Him, answers you last question….I am a daughter of the King, a princess (ask Darla) even though I have made horrible choices for my life and suffered a great deal because of them, there is no guilt, no condemnation, and freedom like I have never experienced before. You want to interpret the physical world around you? The only one who can let you do that in a way that you never have before is the one who created it.
hoverfrog - Do you think of ghosts as something real? Are they spirits? This is not to answer my question or even to give a response. I am seriously curious. It’s something that hasn’t come up here that much.. I would be curious how some atheists may see this phenomenon
Robert says:
Definitely your perspective here. It is very easy to understand that I have been given my own opportunity to either accept or not. I like that I have a choice. If I don’t believe in eternity, than this doesn’t matter to me. I do believe and I am grateful for the opportunity to freely make my choice to how I want to live it out. It’s not God’s choice…it is mine.
@Gods Gal
You are assuming that I have NOT asked and sought. The answer I received was essentially: Trust your senses and continue your search! I may always have questions…not knowing the answers doesn’t trouble me.
I too have made some mistakes…believe me.
I don’t think God is troubled by my failings, so long as I grow and improve for having failed.
Again I think it’s a situation of we are viewing existence from two very different vantage points.
I think what separates us most GG is you believe there is only one conduit to salvation: acceptance of Jesus Christ as your personal savior.
I’m sorry, I don’t think that God is that stringent regardless what John 14:6 says.
@InWorship
For me, this all goes back to the supposed omniscience of God. By your reckoning of God, He knew me long before the sperm met the egg as it were.
He knew the person I would be and the choices I would make. If any of that should/would have displeased him, clearly it was well within his power to snuff me out.
So where does that leave the notion of freewill?
Either he’s NOT omniscient (all knowing all seeing) or there’s no such thing as freewill.
I’m not looking for you to explain this. Philosophers and theologians have been trying to reconcile this incompatibility for thousands of years.
I don’t think we are gonna solve it here!
Robert
@InWorship
This is very troublesome to me. Leviticus prescribes stoning for a disobedient child.
Under what circumstances would we EVER condone that in our soceity?
Yet you claim not to see a difference.
Maybe Gods Gal is right, and unless I open myself to it I won’t see it.
I just don’t see how it’s possible to make the leap to the morality of Leviticus.
Robert
@Gods Gal
I have another thing I want to ask you.
I am going on the assumption you consider yourself ’saved’.
So when the rapture comes you will rise into the heavens with the rest of the ’saved’ people on Earth.
Please bear with me, I am not trying to be glib or a jerk here.
Can I also assume that you have friends maybe even family who are NOT saved? These are people about whom you care deeply perhaps love.
These are folks who will remain on earth during the tribulations to come. Correct?
How will you be able to enjoy heaven when those you love are in such torment?
I doubt very much you are a person who takes delight in the sufferings of others. So how will you deal with that pain?
I’m just curious because I see you as a compassionate and loving person.
These are the things I think about when I’m home alone and the power goes out, these are the thoughts that kept me out of the really good schools.
Robert
Robert:
@Gods Gal
Never would I expect such a thing! I accept that you believe with all your heart.
Respectfully, I think the doctrine of the rapture and the tribulation are wrong. :”>
Though I find the whole epistemology behind the rapture fascinating. I think it says more about our fears than it does about the future. Here is a sampling.
Robert
Will I ever get these stupid block thingys right???~X(
I’ve read through your sampling….some of it I’ve never heard before, alot I have. Thank you for that!
I really have no fear of my future…God is way bigger than my feeble way of thinking….His love is way more than I can even imaging….certainty and NOT still having to seek for “something” has it’s perks!
Robert Says:
I can see from your perspective that this would be troublesome. But, I see a God that is interested in people who love Him and love others. So, there are consequences to our acts. Gods interest for the Jews at that time was to keep them safe, clean and working together. The laws were set out to do this.
Robert says:
God doesn’t expect you to either. That is why Jesus was sent to be “The Fulfillment of the law”. You can’t take a law written for a certain people at a certain time for certain circumstances and apply that today. God new this and sent His Son to be the “ultimate” sacrifice. When you read through Levitcal law, you see how their sacrificial practices are now held to Jesus and His sacrifice on the cross.
Here’s the deal. It’s all or nothing in Christianity. Like I said to ash earlier, you can’t take portions and leave others out. God is the same God. We are different people. Times change and situations change, but He does not.
Robert - I have a great read for you to check out, Go grab “Heaven” by Randy Alcorn.
A lot of what you describe is a very traditional view of Heaven and the Rapture. I think you would be pleasantly surprised by this book. It is written from a Christian perspective, but it absolutely demolishes “typical” views of the Heaven and the end times.
I like it!
@Gods Gal
Oh yeah! It’s certainly easier.
Robert
@InWorship
And:
So the implication there is that Leviticus had application for those people in those times?
If that is indeed the case why to modern day misanthropes use Leviticus to justify all sorts of hatred and venom towards homosexuals? Not to mention the barbaric punishments prescribed for adulterers and blasphemers.
What?! But that is exactly what some Christians do!
If we can agree that Jesus gave Christians a new covenant and the old mores don’t apply…for the love of God let’s get rid of the old books that misanthropes use to justify hatred.
Oh my….Bill is right… this makes my head hurt! :((
Robert
Actually, it’s not as easy as you think….Tam reminded me today of a scripture (and I’m not using the stupid block thing), but it says:
Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2 verse 14, “But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the spirit means.”
So right there, it’s like, what’s the point in even trying? But then, I care about humanity and realize time is short, so I keep going…call me the cosmic Ever-ready bunny I guess….
I think I’m just gonna go listen to some mindless heavy metal now!!!
8-}
“The White Stripes” should fit the bill!
Get behind me!!!
R
Robert - I actually agree to some extent.
First though, here is a perspective on what you have heard and what I am writing you now. You have experienced how many times a Christian will talk to you or respond here at FC with some off the wall statement of what atheists believe. Yet in fact, they are generalizing and most of the time are far from the actual truth. I would say this goes with atheists as well. I am sure you have heard and seen a ton of stuff that places Christians into some sort of category, but it just can’t be done and most don’t fall into specific catagories. To be a Christian is to believe in Jesus. Who the Bible says He was and who He is. This is over simplifying, but to make a point. From there…there is a ton of breathing room on doctrine and beliefs.
Now, where we agree…
Too many “Christians” have taken parts of the scripture and used it to condemn. This is not Biblical nor is it Christian. Our life is lived out to love and to be an example of Jesus. Not to condemn. the other day, I commented here on another post (very strongly I might add), to someone using the name of Christ to condemn. I hate it…it pisses me off. I know the Christian life to be one of conviction, but first and foremost one of love. I read a friends(another Christian) post today that talked of levitical law. He has a tattoo and was approached by 2 gentleman that didn’t agree with it. They used scripture in leviticus to prove their case. Of course, my friend referred them to another verse in leviticus that spoke of not having long hair, which these two were obviously disobeying.
Now, where we would disagree is in throwing out what we don’t see as useful or appropriate. I read the OT and the NT. The OT is full of practical principle and lesson. Some of the greatest books on worship and character are in the OT (Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah and more). The laws in the OT were fulfilled through Christ when He died on the cross. this does not make them worthless or of no value. There are many principles we can take from them and still do (The whole murder thing comes to mind). Many OT laws I read and see them as silly, but this is because of my culture and 21st century America. The beauty of a relationship with God is that we are not held accountable for those laws today because Jesus has become the final sacrifice for us.
Sorry for helping make your head hurt. I blame GG mostly though :d
Also, I really like the White Stripes
I’ll go check Leviticus just to make sure that’s ok though
By the way, that was meant to be completely sarcastic and not at all truthful :)>-
The Leviticus part…
Gosh now I sound like darla
sorry,late again *shuffles feet embarrassedly*
inWorship, cheers for getting back to me.
it’s because i see a huge difference between god word-and-actions in the old compared to new testament, and i’m presuming the standard christian doctrine of trinitarianism (please correct me if this is not a belief you share).
i’ll have to get back to this later, bit busy right now…
ash - no problem on the business, join in when you can.
I do agree with the idea of the trinity. It’s something that makes sense with my beliefs, but I can’t explain it all. I definitely have not done much studying to understand what the more “theologic” may say it is.
In reference to God saying one thing and doing another, can you give me some examples? Thanks!
@inWorship, I see no evidence of ghosts at all. I think that they are little more than wishful thinking on the part of the living.
How would you define “spirit”?
hover - I want to talk about this. I am the one running crazy today, I will be back I promise
OK inWorship, do you want to continue on your blog?
Hov: I guess the site was down for awhile yesterday, I’m sure IW will continue today..happy hopping!!!;)
Yes, the site was down yesterday afternoon for a few hours - we don’t know why; we’re just happy it’s back up again!
So…any definition of ’spirit’ yet?
Yes, Hover…inWorship is slammed today with a studio project. He mentioned to me earlier about getting back to you on this…he has not forgotten.
Holy crap - I am finally here. It’s been a long two days sorry hover.
hover says
I agree but I also see it as so much more. It is the part of us that interprets everything we physically come in to contact with. When we smell something, our noses smell, but our noses don’t determine what we are smelling, whether we like it and what we want to do about it. That is our spirit. We smell(sense) then because of that smell we are affected. How we are affected is determined by our spirit.
I know this may not be explaining perfectly what I am trying to say, but it starts the discussion. Our spirits guide everything about our lives. As Christians, we feel that our spirit is controlled by God, even beyond that we see our lives inhabited by God’s spirit(the Holy Spirit). This is what guides us in knowing and understanding God’s truth.
You might think this is crazy, but I like to look at it instead as odd. We see ourselves “enlightened”, so to speak(this does not mean “in the right” just opened to something new). I’ve heard some say that spirit is a religious thing. That phrase “enlightened” is probably to blame for that thought. The reality is we all have it. Again, it just depends how we see it.
You’re talking about emotional responses to stimulation via the senses. There are chemical responses in the brain to certain smells that evoke memories or emotions. These are physical rather than metaphysical. We can attribute metaphysical responses to the physical (as I think you have) but that doesn’t provide evidence of it.
We have personalities that are formed by our physical experiences and by our inherited genetics. At least that is what the evidence suggests. I was hoping that “spirit” would be something distinct and separate from personality and genetic predisposition.
It is. It is the thing that ties it all together. Science cannot prove how we make our decisions and why we like or dislike things, but it can give us ideas of how we get there. That is personality and genetic predisposition. Chemicals can make us excited or happy or scared, but they don’t determine our intent or purpose.
Hi Hov: I wanted to explain my beliefs in this area. The Hebrew word which is pronounced roo-awkh, means breath, or more specifically, a breathing out, or exhalation. Breath didn’t make a lot of sense to me, that it would mean Spirit, until I realized that breath means life, a living, creative force, which is used many times in the Bible as an analogy for the Spirit of God, in the Old Testament. Like in Genesis, when Adam was created, 2:7,”and He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being”.
In the New Testament, the Greek word translated as “Spirit” in the term “Spirit of God” is pronounced new-mah and means the same thing as the Old Testament word, but with a much deeper usage. The Old Testament word mostly meant creating of physical life, while in the New Testament refers to the power that is creating eternal life.
Ephesians 3:30 - “The Holy Spirit of God in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Romans 8:14 - “For all all who are led by the Spirit (new-mah) of God are sons of God.
I like to compare the Spirit to the wind, to me they are similar….He can be heard, but not seen, He has the liberty to go wherever He wants, and no one knows where it comes from or where it ends. Though God is invisible, He is still speaking to us, His creation and all men.
Going back to Adam, when God put His spirit into man, the life force, the eternal part, it gave us unity with Him, not just life. I don’t know how much detail I should get into, but I will say, there was a separation that happened, and in order to reconcile, there has to be a choice to choose that reconnection of the Spirit. You body will die, but your spirit will live eternally. It is the connection to God. Once someone chooses Him that is when He reveals things, eternal things that people can not possibly comprehend unless they belong to Him. My belief is that we are essentially spirit beings, in a body, with a soul.
One observation I do have to make tho, as atheists, if you guys would read what we wrote, and without text book or “science” would just ask Him, you would see that what we are speaking of is true….that reason I say that is because as smart as you guys are, there is a whole realm that you haven’t tapped into yet, because you seek your wisdom from mans opinion in text, rather than the one who has all the answers. But, we’re here to discuss…so let’s discuss
I won’t say that it’s any clearer yet. i wish you…um…non-atheists would explain these concepts without your book as well.
Mine is that we are essentially physical beings, no soul, no spirit. Just animal forms with intelligence and sensitivity derived from an evolved sense of empathy. I see my POV as ever so simple to understand and I’m betting that you see yours in the same light.
Your bet is right. I don’t do anything without my “book” because it is the very essence of God which He spoke through man. Unlike other books, which are mostly hypothesis from man’s trying to figure things out. I choose to go with the one who created me and knows exceedingly more. Like Tam has mentioned, you won’t see our POV because you deny His existence.
It seems that we have reached an impasse then. Drat!
It’s ok, it’s not the first, nor will it be the last…LOL;)
Doesn’t this create a problem for attracting fresh converts though? I mean for an Atheist there is a wealth of evidence and factual information to draw upon but for a Christian there is an unknowable spiritual element that cannot even be adequately explained, only felt. How do you ’show’ someone this spirituality if they have never experienced it?
I’m really not trying to be difficult or rude here. I just don’t get it.
I have something to add and not just to ensure my pole position in the top commentators box.
This dichotomy between spirituality and intellect bothers me. Many (I’d even say most) people of faith aren’t stupid but seem to take the existence of a spiritual part of themselves on faith (pun intended). I can see why religions begin recruiting with the very young. They are naturally inclined to believe everything that they are told without evidence.
I was raised to question assumptions and to challenge anything that I did not understand. I really hate not being able to comprehend a topic. It doesn’t matter what it is, if I don’t get at least the basic principles I get annoyed. With the idea of spirituality or the concept of a soul I am baffled.
I had always considered a soul or a spirit to be a simply way of labeling a human being’s ability to empathise and relate to others and to how deeply they are effected by things. A person’s sensitivity, if you will. However I’ve been told several times here and elsewhere that a soul is something distinct and separate from this. It is eternal and beyond the physical, emotional and mental parameters that define us as human beings. I have yet be shown what the purpose of a soul is. If I lack a soul I still retain my intellect, my physical form, my empathy and sensitivity. Where do I lose out if I lack a soul?
The spirit (for soul and spirit seem to be interchangeable expressions for the same thing) has been described as eternal. Does it therefore contain part of the intellect and experiences that make up a human’s life? If so then the brain seems partly redundant and if not then what is the point of accumulating all those experiences if they are lost to the eternal part of us?
Where does the soul reside in the human body? It is undetectable as it has no mass or physical characteristics whatsoever and no apparent wavelength. For all intents and purposes it does not exist. However many concepts understood by the mind have no mass and no wavelength. Love and war are two examples. Is the soul therefore a concept or idea rather than a thing? This of course goes back to my earlier mention of a soul being merely a jargon word to describe myriad traits of humanity.
Any more information about what a soul or a spirit is would be helpful in letting me get to grips with this topic.
Hov, I have so much respect for you and have come to really enjoy our debates. I’m at a loss as to what to say to you tho. One thing I suppose i can point out as I read through your entries and try to answer your questions, is that neither me nor Tam or anyone else who believes will be able to show you. It’s nothing we can explain much less give you, only He can. But I’ll try, to the best of my ability to answer some things for you. Human being have three distinct parts. Body, spirit and soul. Spirit and soul are different from eachother, they both dwell within the body. The spirit is the eternal part along with the soul that is eternal. They are two seperate parts of the eternal being of a person and have different attributes that define each. (This is really hard for me without scripture
) But, they are distinct and seperate. Right now, until we die, we are in the physical body. When I gave my life to Christ, the part within me that communes with Him became alive and things began to be clear. It’s way more than a heightening of senses, it’s understanding things about yourself, encountering things and understanding things that never would have been open to me if I had not given my life and trusted Him. It’s not that you don’t have a soul and Spirit, it’s that you have not tapped into it. Once you do, you understand. There are scriptures that describe the “un-tapped into soul” as dead, and until it is reunited with it’s Creator, remains so. It was never His intention to be separated, but He does not force Himself on anyone, which is why it is our choice. That’s why when someone gets it enough to reach out to Him, He is quick to respond and it’s life changing. It’s the beginning of how it was suppose to be to begin with….and things are seen with fresh eyes, spiritual eyes instead of physical. It really is amazing. That’s why some refer to it as being “born again”. It’s the reuniting of your spirit with His, and everything becomes new. I have more to say to answer more of your questions, but I have a short meeting and will be back in a bit. Hang in there with me!!!:d/
After reading a few commentaries and consulting “the book”
I like this definition of soul and spirit. For spirit: it is that part related to worship and divine communion. The soul: the immaterial part of man that concerns life, action, and emotion.
Our spirits have three main functions Hov, conscience, which is knowing the difference between right and wrong, Not, I might point out through the influence of knowledge, but kind of a spontaneous judgment…. Second is intuitions, they sense things, third is communion or lack of with God. It is the part that connects…. See man was originally designed to commune with God through the spirit. Now as for your question, I first have to say that your statement of “I can see why religions begin recruiting with the very young” is way off. God recruits, not people, and I have seen people in their 70’s and 80’s give their lives to God and reconnect with Him, so this idea of brainwashing children into Godliness really needs to go. These people that I have first hand witnessed in their later years, spent their lives just like you……so I don’t believe in that theory.
I love your last paragraph, while I feel like I have answered your question about where it resides, I think you answered your own question beautifully with your comparison of Love. It’s real is it not? How would you explain it to someone who has never experienced it? Even though you have explained it a