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Person A was woke up late this morning. He drove an average of 10mph over the speed limit in order to make it to work on time.
Person B murdered her parents last night.
Many people argue the case that sin is sin to God. They say that sin does not have a level of severity to God - it’s either sin or not. Person B is the same as Person A - a sinner.
For you nerds, think in binary terms - it’s either a 1 or a 0; on or off. Sin or not sin.
In our world today we put a degree on sin. Gluttony, breaking minor laws of the state and getting drunk aren’t considered nearly as evil as murder and rape.
Does God put a degree on sin? Is sin really sin in they eyes of God? If Adolph Hitler asked for forgiveness shortly before his death, could he really be forgiven and in Heaven just as easily as the next guy?
Let’s get this conversation rolling!
Invite a friend to participate. Let’s see what we come up with!
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I like sin. I dislike absolutes especially in human behaviour. I’ve written a couple of times about the virtues of a good sin in the past. For example sloth is a virtue because it reduces the amount of work that is repeated for no good reason and makes everything more efficient. If you disagree then go back to washing clothes by hand in the nearest river or chopping firewood to cook dinner with.
I don’t think that any God would hold the positive aspects of a good sin against someone.
As you mentioned Hitler I say that it is possible to look on many of his acts in a positive manner. His economic policies transformed Germany from a nearly bankrupt state to a world power in under a decade. Similarly he can be held responsible for the introduction of the Volkswagen which proved to be the standard for future efficient automobiles for decades. I’m not saying that he was a good man by any means as he was clearly a complete fruit loop and mass murdering maniac but he did do good things. I’m sure Genghis Khan was quite nice to his children as well.
I am saying that viewing the world in black and white with no shades of grey cannot be a good thing. Imagine a totalitarian regime where the sins of murder and of speeding were punishable by death or even where the sin of not worshipping the Christian God were a crime. Where would homosexuals fit in?
Having said that, according to your religion, if Hitler did repent as he sat in his bunker contemplating his last moments wouldn’t he be forgiven and allowed to ascend to heaven? Poor old me gets to pop my clogs and go straight to toast town despite my charitable works and generally convivial demeanor. Helping my fellow man, donating my time to others, never breaking a law. Does it all counts for naught in the grand game of religion?
I think there is a general misconception of “sin” and “salvation.” First of all everyone sins, whether you are an athiest or a Christian. None of us are perfect, we are all faulted. For any of us to be forgiven, we have to first believe in God and that his son Jesus Christ paid the penalty on the cross and died for our sins. We can not “earn” forgiveness on our own through “good” acts or charity. Jesus was the spotless lamb, the perfect sacrifice who through our belief in him, allows us to be forgiven. The second part of forgiveness is repentence, to turn away from sin, to no longer do it. That means you don’t sit in your dirty diaper just because you’ve been forgiven.
I believe the previous commenter’s term of “good sin” is impossible. I would challenge him to look at the meaning of the word “good.” No one earns their way to heaven. Hitler, if sincere in his repentence and prayer to God minutes before his death, would be forgiven. Not because he deserved it, but because of his repentence and faith. How can one expect to go to heaven for his good works and charity if he doesn’t believe in the entity who created heaven in the first place?
I guess I look at it like this……
God knows my heart. I am a sinner and I do ask for forgiveness. If Hitler surpassed the evil that resided in his heart and came to a point where he felt bad for what he did and asked God to forgive him, well then I think God does.
Supposedly J. Dauhmer (?) asked for forgiveness in the end also. Maybe he realized he was sick at that point and needed God? Who knows but there supposedly was a moment where he felt bad and asked God to forgive him.
What bothers me is that what if that 14 year old boy he killed and chopped up hadnt yet gotten around to asking God to forgive him….and yet his killer will end up in heaven while he suffers eternity in hell. I have a hard time with that.
But, on the other hand…..God knew his heart and I believe that is what God bases his decisions on. Maybe right before he died he ended up at a Wed. night youth function with a school friend and quietly asked God in then. You just never know.
This is one of the things that doesn’t make sense to me - that even though all human behavior lies on a spectrum, conservative Christians believe in just two polar opposite destinies after death: heaven or hell.
I know that one pastor I had would say, heaven and hell varied according to how faithful or how sinful you were.
However, that’s like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic compared to the infinite difference between eternal bliss and eternal torture.
I understand the conservative Christian POV - it’s about Jesus’ great sacrifice; it’s all you need to get to heaven because he’s so gracious; conversely how can you even think you could get in there without it; there’s no way.
So that sets up there being only two options, poles apart.
It still doesn’t make sense to me.
hoverFrog if God sends you to Toast Town I’m sure I’m headed there too for all the times I have failed to show him proper respect over the last six years. (He’s probably adding this post to the list right now) Let’s look each other up when we get there: I’d like to meet you in person
Never one to turn down a challenge I looked “good” up:
good
• adjective (better, best) 1 to be desired or approved of. 2 having the required qualities; of a high standard. 3 morally right; virtuous. 4 well behaved. 5 enjoyable or satisfying. 6 appropriate. 7 (good for) beneficial to. 8 thorough. 9 at least.
• noun 1 that which is morally right or beneficial. 2 (goods) merchandise or possessions. 3 (goods) Brit. freight.
Several of these adjectives can be applied to sin particularly number 5. However I think that you’ve missed my point. “Sin” is a cultural term. The Old Testament says that slavery (for example) is acceptable and has several passages on how to deal with and treat your slaves. In the modern world with our western ideas we view slavery as morally wrong. How many slaves to you have? Another example is the sin of murder. Thou Shalt Not Kill is pretty unequivocal and yet many states in America support the death sentence. I view this as murder by the state and as reprehensible but your own moral code may see it as necessary or even as right.
The Greek word in the New Testament for sin literally means “missing the mark” which I take to mean “not living a moral life”. You may deem many of the ways that I live my life to be immoral and I may well think the same thing about you. We don’t know each other so I can’t comment. I am saying that many of the Laws of the Old Testament, specifically those found in Leviticus, are outdated and patently absurd. It is not a sin to wear “clothing woven part of wool, part of linen”, to demand interest on a loan you make to a Jew or even to be a homosexual. I would consider it a sin to force a woman to marry her rapist (Deuteronomy 22:28-29), to stone my son to death if he was disobedient (Deuteronomy 21:18-21), or to put the male population to death after waging war on them (Deuteronomy 20:10-13).
To answer your final question “How can one expect to go to heaven for his good works and charity if he doesn’t believe in the entity who created heaven in the first place?”: I don’t. How can I deny the existence of something and then expect tickets to it. I also don’t expect that you will go to heaven, or Hitler or even the Pope. I do charity and help people because people need helping and I am able to help, not for some reward that I expect to receive after I am dead. If I’m wrong about there being a God and he can’t see that good deeds speak for themselves then sod him, I don’t want to go to that sort of heaven anyway.
Helen, that would be good. I think most of my family and friends would be there too so I won’t be lonely.
Won’t we all be surprised to who is who in Heaven! haha I have thought about this before. Sin is sin to God. But before the thief died on the Cross he acknowledged the Jesus as the only one who could save him from hell..Jesus accepted him and said he would be with him in paradise…mmmmmmm sounds like me you do have choice right up til death..pending you don’t die instantly and off gaurd. But lots of people do die that way. Forgiven…sinners, prostitutes, murderers, thiefs, drug addicts and the list goes on…my God loves the ones the world loves to hate! radical! that totally rocks!
hey Hover!-some sin is pleasurable and is good at the time..still sin..so I think I am agreeing with that…:-?
Missed you guys!
isn’t that what grace is all about???
unmerited!
limitless!
unconditional…..
and how extravagant would the Love of GOD be to allow the likes of Hitler into His kingdom?!?
i’m all for it!!!!!!!!!!!
and the angels in heaven will rejoice over ONE sinner who comes to repentance.
let the party begin!!!!!!
Man my heart hurts over some of the stuff written here….I’ll be back when I have a few minutes to write/share…:-<
hoverFrog, yes, good point.
Darla wrote: my God loves the ones the world loves to hate!
I’m fine with that idea - what concerns me is being told he hates the ones the world loves to love.
One of my problems with religion is that it teaches people to throw away ethics discussion and grasp at very easy answers instead.
“God knows his heart” is a TERRIBLE ethics lesson. It allows EVERYONE with a clear conscience to assume that they are doing right. Well, sometimes we can do “right” in our hearts, but our actions can have terrible consequences.
The “HEART” isn’t where our actions have consequences. I’m sure in George Bush’s HEART he’s doing what’s right. That doesn’t mean that his actions don’t have terrible and long-lasting consequences that will remain unexamined.
It’s not just simplifying good and evil into black vs. white that I complain about. It’s that religion is a type of folk-ethics that causes people to think that they have an ethical code…. in fact they claim a SUPERIOR ethical code! But they never seem to grasp the danger of unintended consequences. They see “sin” as an internal struggle. But that’s wrong. It doesn’t end there.
The idea of “God knows your heart” is a TERRIBLE trap. Every truely evil person knows in their heart of hearts that they’re doing what’s right. People will always believe that God’s on their side. The motto of the slave-owning Confederacy was Deo Vindice (Under God, Our Vindicator). In their “hearts”, they were right!
If our society is to survive, we MUST move past this simple folk-ethics to a place where we judge our rightness and wrongness not based on our “heart,” but based on how we harm or help others.
God doesn’t hate, He grieves! He feels, everything we feel and more…I can’t comprehend how you guys (Hover, Helen) can be so flip about Hell. Even if there is the remotest chance in your mind that it may exist…..it’s not like you’ll be there playing cards and drinking beer.:-?
I admit Hover, there are some sins that are pleasurable for a season. But if it’s continued, it will bring death. Whether it is physical or spiritual , it will bring death to something. That doesn’t make it good because it feels good either…Also, why is there a continued reference to the old testament times when once He died we became a new testament church? That’s why He died in the first place…Yes there is a purpose for the Old Testament, another day another topic, but if you want to really know about the God’s purpose for humanity today you need to read the New Testament, not the old which was still under the law. Again, sin is sin, putting degrees on it, or questioning ones salvation because of our limited thinking and reasoning capabilities is a mute point to me.
Siamang: Actually, I believe the total oposite of the phrase “God knows his heart” of what you believe to be true. Shocking isn’t it? LOL:) Your statement that every evil person knows in their heart of hearts that they’re doing what’s right. HUH? No, they know beyond a doubt that they are doing is horendously wrong but for whatever reason it brings them power and pleasure and that becomes more important than any conviction they may feel. After a time of continuing, I also believe that they can become numb to their own concious which is really scary. Deception from Satan can come in many forms, whether it looks ugly to another human being really doesn’t matter. It can be as simple as putting blinders on someone so they are unable to comprehend the truth of God, or it can be mass murder…..The condition of the heart can only be recognized and judged by one, namely God. Our society? It won’t survive, it can’t possibly with the things that are allowed to go on the way they are now. Quite frankly, it’s going to take and act of God to set things right….
I think sin is a man made concept that has outlived any usefulness it might have had in the past. There are some things that are bad/evil/immoral because they cause pain and suffering. There are other things that are illegal/unethical because they hurt society. But many things that are declared sin are just stupid because there is no victim, except perhaps God. Blasphemy is one such sin. Extramarital sex between consenting adults is another. Drawing a picture of Mohammed is another. I could make a huge list. These things are considered “sins” only because they are declared so in a holy book but they do not hurt anybody so it’s just plain stupid to have a stigma attached to these actions because some religion thinks they are wrong or offensive. I think the word “sin” should be thrown onto the garbage heap of historical discarded words.
God’s Gal, I don’t think I’m any more flip about hell than Christians who say they believe in it, yet don’t put much effort into trying to keep people out of it.
I might be more irreverent than them but I don’t think they take it any more seriously than I do.
Extramarital sex doesn’t hurt anybody? huh…
Blasphemy of God is not only sin, it is the ONLY one that will keep you from eternity with Him. Sin is man made, agreed, but not a concept…it’s real, a choice. What’s scary to me is not a Holy Book, it’s people who seemingly have no bounderies o concious about good and evil and deem everything acceptable…….sin has no victim except God? Possibly, but the fact that you were on His mind when He died should mean something….
Helen, why do you think I am on this site…all we do is keep trying to lead you in the right direction and right way of thinking things…what else would you like us to do. Here’s what I believe, unless you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord and give your life to him, your going to hell. I can’t get much more serious than that, yet please tell me what else I can do for you that would help you to take that step NOT end up there? We get aggresive and we’re accused of ramming it down your throats, we take it easy and we’re not taking it seriously….please, please tell me what else I can do for you, because I for one take it VERY seriously.
Gods Gal, there probably isn’t anything you can do to make me have faith - but thanks for caring about whether I am eternally tortured or not. I do appreciate that.
(If I’m a very seriously backslidden Christian then I will get to heaven anyway - according to what the churches I went to taught - I’ll get there but God is not going to be very happy with me)
Helen, forgive me for asking this in case you have mentioned it before, but I am curious about something… You were a Christian, right? And now are not? How serious were you with your relationship with God in the first place? Not in things man may have been misleading you by at the time…but your relationship with GOD?
oh and one more thing…you’re right Helen, no one can make you have faith. Faith is a choice. It’s a risk really. But you do have faith in your life. You live out faith everyday and don’t even realize it. We all do. We believe in something - we have faith in something - I believe it’s what drives us. Drives us to conversations such as this. But you do have faith…
Gods Gal, you seem upset and I’m sorry if my comments have been the cause in any way. Please try to understand that I am flippant about hell simply because I don’t believe in it. I believe that when I die I cease to exist. There is no great reward and no eternal suffering for me or for anyone else.
Having read these comments it also seems clear to me that we have different ideas of what sin is. When I said that some sins can have positive aspects I was referring to the famous Seven Deadly Sins. My example of Sloth being useful in the invention of labour saving devices is genuine. It wasn’t someone who loved work that invented the dish washer. I’m saying that absolutes like the seven deadly sins are ridiculous because positive things can be found in them.
clarification, cause i know how things can get torn apart here if read into wrong…our choice on faith is what we’re putting our faith in…that’s the risk
Hoverfrog-that is so sad:(( There is no hope in nothing after death. Have you ever thought that there must be more to life? than the every day in and out? I believe in eternity and it gives me hope. In the world there is no hope except for trivial things. My heart goes out to you. Life is pointless with out eternity to look forward to. Love ya, even if we see things differently. :)>-
Tam here’s something I wrote ten years ago.
About God
Based on that, would you say my relationship with God was serious?
You said faith is a choice. Could you stop believing in God right now if you wanted to? Is it a choice for you?
darla, life is not pointless without eternity to look forward to. It actually makes us care more about this life because we have to, if it’s all we have.
God’s Gal and others, I apologize for being flippant about hell on a Christian blog.
It was not respectful of me.
Darla, it isn’t sad at all. Knowing that this is the only chance I have at life means that I don’t waste it. I didn’t exist before I was born and I’m not sad about that. I won’t exist after I’m dead and I see no reason to be sad about that either.
I think that like is pointless if you do have eternity. What possible reason is the 70 odd years on Earth if you have forever to follow after. Not having eternity gives my life more meaning, more focus, than an endless existence. Living forever wouldn’t be living, it would be existing.
I’m not sure if I’m explaining this well. Does what I’ve said mean anything to you even if you might disagree with it? I could try to rephrase it.
@Helen…
Concerning your link. Wow. I don’t know what else to say.
Gods Gal said:
No. Sex between unmarried people does not hurt anyone. Sex outside of a marriage only hurts people if the two partners have agreed to be monogamous and then cheat on each other. That’s wrong because it’s lying and deceiving, not because it’s sex outside of marriage.
Also, regarding blasphemy, anyone that can be a victim is not powerful enough to be considered a god.
Tam said:
No, it’s not. Belief is not a choice. You hear some information, and you either believe it or you don’t. You don’t choose to believe. You can choose to PRETEND to believe, as Mother Theresa apparently did for 50 years, but that’s not faith, it is hypocricy.
Darla said:
There certainly is hope without belief in an afterlife. I hope that I can live a life that helps alleviate the suffering of those around me. I hope that I can do small things that bring joy and beauty to the world. If I were a parent, I would hope that I could raise children who could also do these things. I hope that future generations will be better than those in the past have been. There are many, many things to be hopeful about even if you don’t believe in an afterlife.
I’ve got to say, the small world that believers live in, particularly related to the the comments that I quoted above, really makes me sad. You seem so sheltered and closed off from everything, and you don’t seem to be able to understand that other people who don’t share your faith can be happy and hopeful. I feel sorry for you, actually. Sigh.
Wow - Helen, amazing writing. So many truths about God!
But I can’t answer for you whether or not your relationship with God was serious based on the article. Only you can! That’s why I asked.
I’ve known many, many people with much head knowledge and who were very studied in the word but did not have a faith relationship with God.
Based on Eph 3:1-6 - Having predestined us to be adopted in accordance with His will. His will is for us all to know Him and to choose a relationship with Him. He is then gracious enough to give us free will - to make that choice for ourselves - to receive what He is offering. He will not force Himself on any of us. The same way I wouldn’t, nor couldn’t, force anyone to love me. It wouldn’t be real or authentic. It needs to be discovered on it’s own. That’s what we’re all doing, discovering in the adventure.
In my clarification comment above I said where I put my faith is my choice. So could I decide not to take a risk on God…sure. Does that mean He would cease to exist because I simply decided to risk that He might not…no. So in that regard, yes i could choose to walk away and place my faith in something else - but I wouldn’t. I could say there is no God - but I believe there is.
writerdd, what I said in my clarification above because I knew someone would do this is…where I put my faith is a choice.
“You hear some information, and you either believe it or you don’t. You don’t choose to believe.”
What? You said you either believe it or you don’t. Isn’t THAT the choice right there.
Either way, I was misquoted…
With all due respect, it doesn’t make much sense.
Ok, I don’t know if it’s because I have been up since 3 am, or what, but for whatever reason I have been feeling so heartsick today. I’ve read back over my blogs today and Hover’s right, I sound a bit perturbed…but I’m not angry. it’s more like when you kiddo begins to drive, and you know that if they go 110 around a 35 mph corner, they’ll have dire consequences. But, they ignore you and go on their way anyway….heartsick. So, I took a break, and really took a little time to think about ya’ll. writerdd: I don’t agree with your opinion on sex. I’ve seen it hurt plenty of people in my life, unwanted pregnancy, (oh, and yes I am against abortion, another blog) diseases, lives ripped apart because young people who’s sexual desires turn on before they are emotionally ready…a whole realm of stuff, that I guess you can turn a blind eye to, I choose not to. As far as living in a small world, the world has vastly opened up to me since I began my walk with the Lord. it’s huge, and it’s wonderful and exciting….
Hover, I explained earlier, and apologize if I came of grumpy>:p Sorry, but even us believers have emotions…LOL I have to agree with Darla tho Hov, AND I truly hope to see ya in eternity…my side of course
Sweet sister Helen, you are so loved, you know in the deepest part of you the truth, and I’m sorry you have been hurt so deeply. You are still a child of God, He still has big plans for you and has never left your side, not for a moment. There are so many who are here for you, and He is way bigger than your anger. I hope you’re able to let it go soon, I for one am anxious to hear your next blog. :d You may have convinced yourself that you have turned from Him, but He’s still right beside you, so am I, so is Tam, so is Darla and Mandy, and I can guarantee that as long as there is this blog and a computer, we’ll be there.
I live life to the fullest! I love life, and I also believe people could care more than they do, and just try to be better..but everything I am yearns for more than just this, I just believe in the supernatural, and I believe that there are two forces that drive it..good and evil..I want the good! Respect the differences between us. But also know that I hope you all are in heaven with me…what a party! I need God, HE fills all the empty places in me, and without HIM its all hopeless and mundane. I am not trying to change your minds…just know that what I have in relationship is worth life to me. Something worth dying for….that gives me purpose and life that is more awesome than anything I have had in religions, or lack of. Have a good night peoples…check on ya in the morning…late here, and work in the morning.
You’re right Helen, there are only two poles - with God and without. Only with the seemingly high degree of freedom of choice, do we delude ourselves into thinking that there is a spectrum of relationship with God, or a spectrum of human behavior.
writerdd, I am definitely not “sheltered” - you would have to personally know me to accurately make that call. Trust me, sheltered I am not. Nor am I “closed off from everything”. That is a very broad statement to make. Again, not knowing me - you are not qualified to make that call. I have not labeled anyone here, who shares my beliefs or not, anything. That’s not my job or right.
I don’t know you - but I hope you are happy and have things in which you put your hope in and hope for.
Please do not feel sorry for me. You have no cause or reason to - but thanks for caring anyway…:)>-
God’s Gal, we have something in common
- I’m not angry either. What made you think I was?
Ha…I’m glad, I don’t know, just cyberspace i guess, I agree we have alot in common…..:d
Thanks God’s Gal.
I was checking in case you had a list of quotes of mine which do indicate I’m angry - if you did have a list like that it would indicate I’m lying to myself. I don’t want to be doing that!
No, I was reading through your old blogs there and sense a lot of pain tho…I don’t think you’re lying to yourself…but I do believe that you know the Lord and like I stated earlier He has never left your side. I think you are far from lying to yourself, I believe the truth is in you and will find it’s way to the surface again…have a super day!
God’s Gal - yes, there has been pain, but I truly think I have forgiven people and let go, where I needed to.
You are certainly not alone in thinking I am still a Christian. All I can say is, when I read atheist-Christian conversations the side I almost always relate to best is the atheist side (as long as everyone is being relatively respectful).
Tam, sorry, I only just realized you responded to me, up above…ok, since you can’t tell, yes, I did have a faith relationship with God. This is rather personal but hey it’s on my site so it’s not secret - maybe this makes it clearer whether I had a faith relationship with God/Jesus or not:
The reason for the Hope I have
I believe you still do kiddo, have a faith relationship with Him I mean. I also believe He has allowed you in this place your in for a reason….His faith is unwaivering, even when ours is and I have been through something similar…not to this extent, but it just made me love Him all the more when I got back…..
God’s Gal, I am afraid you will be hurt when I am honest and you see I don’t write or think like a Christian any more.
I can’t predict the future with certainty, but as best I know I am never coming back.
Bill,
Can’t you come up with a topic that will punch some buttons?:) Speaking as a believer, I think that there are degrees to sin. In both the OT and the NT certain sins are “highlighted” so to speak. This does not make the other sins less onerous, especially for the Christian who is supposed to know better. Romans speaks of the law of the heart, wherein all humans know that certain things are wrong, such as murder.
Odgie, there are degrees of sin or rather degrees of right and wrong. Even some things we consider wrong are not in some cultures. For instance theft is only wrong if people have a concept of personal ownership. That is part of what I meant earlier when I was talking about absolutes. Another part of it is that things that are considered sins can have positive aspects to them. I’ve used sloth already so I’ll pick on pride this time. Overbearing pride can be bad but a workman who takes pride in his craft to produce a superior product is not committing a sin anymore than a father who takes pride in the accomplishments of his children. Absolutes don’t account for this and label certain actions as bad.
Helen, I’m not hurt, I’m hopeful. I really do understand where you are at, but it’s ok, I am continuing to skim through your old blog. The effectiveness and wisdom are still there even today, to me that counts for something….if you are determined to live a life without Him, He’ll let ya.
Hov, without some absolutes there are no boundries which in turn cause chaos. Even the pride which you described has degrees to it, the first being one with no boundry…
GG, are you agreeing with me? I agree that boundless pride is foolhardy and wasteful and uncontrolled lust is bad for society but we can all enjoy these sins as long as they don’t control us. Denying them is to deny part of ourselves which can cause us to develop psychoses. Yes, we should control our baser natures but to categorise natural instincts as evil is to make suppress them and that just isn’t healthy.
You can probably guess that I’m not a big believer in sin. Sins are stereotypes of human behaviour. Human beings are much more complicated than the stereotypes that are used to define us.
again, WOW, Helen! that poem is incredible! I suffered, and I mean suffered, depression after both my kiddos were born. In those times I had similar thoughts and questions. So I can relate to you here for sure. And like you, then, I came back to truth. The spirit of love, power and sound mind He offers reclaimed its rightful place. But it was through those dark times of depression i got a glimpse of life w/out Him, again…It was miserable…and I never want to go back. So I was thankful for that - it has served me well to this day to remember who I am and Whose I am.
Thank you so much for sharing that with me, us, Helen. You are a gifted writer for sure! Thanks for talking with me too…
@Odgie…
I’ll try better next time
God’s Gal - yes, I am determined and if God exists he knows exactly why.
Thanks Tam
I’m glad you made it through those times. I feel like I learned a lot through them but I’m happy not to be in them now!
Ok, HF, this is the first time I have to say…..do you actually read what you write??? LOL ;)) You haven’t answered my boundry question…do you have boundries for your kids? The “sins” that you listed as foolhardy, wasteful and bad for society. Let’s not even call them sins. How about morality, is there nothing that is not acceptable? And if not, then you must allow your kids to participate without reprecussion as well?
Or…HF & GG - do you believe in, or recognize “cause & effect?” What constitutes each?
It would be fun to also hear back from writerdd concerning Tam’s comments from yesterday…
GG, boundaries are very important but they should be self imposed to have any meaning. As a parent I steer my children onto the path that I consider best but in the end it is their own decisions that shape them as a person, as the adults that they will become.
Tam, cause and effect are certainly believable. What context do you mean though?
I know MY kiddos cannot “self-impose” boundaries. you put a cake in front of me and i might eat the whole thing, but won’t because of boundaries (and thighs). you put a cake in front of my kids - they will eat the whole thing because boundaries aren’t as crucial or relevant to them quite yet, mainly my 10 yr old boy. So…Dad and I set those boundaries for them. As their parents, we draw those lines for them. Bunny trail there…
What i mean by cause and effect is simply consequence. You put your hand in the fire, you get burned. You turn the faucet on, water comes out. You shoot a gun in anger, out of revenge, you kill someone. Cause and effect. Some not so noticeable - some very noticeable. All have consequences. All have an effect. Some are good and some are not. Killing, not so good. Running water, great! Some causes simply have an effect - some have an offense. Which in the case of murder is sin. As is many other things. Things that I fail at daily. Things i acknowledge. I am not perfect huh GG?…I am a sinner, an offender. I suffer consequences on a daily bases for “sins” in my life. I had 2 abortions as a teenager. I killed 2 babies. As a result, consequence, I nearly lost both my children during my pregnancies with them due to major physical problems resulting from the abortions I chose to have. It isn’t punishment, it’s consequence…the effect of something I caused. Cause and effect. My act of selfishness resulted in two lost babies I chose to snuff out…sin. Sin is simply missing the mark. What mark? Who’s mark? For me, I believe it’s the mark that God has set. Do not murder. Why God? Because it causes pain, hurt, misery…Trust me, I know…
I prefer to teach my children to impose boundaries. If I have a box of fairy cakes on Monday and tell them that they need to last the week and they eat them all by Tuesday then they don’t get any more. If they want cakes everyday then they will learn to eat them in moderation. If they want to make themselves sick on Monday and then miss out then they know what the consequences are.
I think that you’ve hit the nail on the head when you say “It isn’t punishment, it’s consequence”. If you tell a child that God will punish them if they are gluttons and eat all the cakes and they don’t get punished they won’t learn how to avoid gluttony, if you tell them that they’ll make themselves sick and they do then they learn the consequences of their actions. As adults we have the wisdom, the life-experience, to warn others of the lessons that we have learnt. I can see how the bible stories do this and can draw lessons from them but nothing beats experiencing something for yourself to make a lesson sink in.
I wrote about karma a week or so ago which is really all about cause and effect on a larger scale. I mention that expecting a reward for good deeds as being selfish. Anyway, have a read and let me know what you think.
Tam I’m so sorry about your abortions.
Although I am not in favor of women being banned from being able to have abortions, my opinion is that it must be a very horrible and sad experience for a woman to go through. When a woman is pregnant she is in an emotional and physical process leading to having a child. Whatever one says about abortion it clearly is a total violation of that process intended to result in new life. I wish no woman was ever, ever in a situation where that seemed to be the best choice available to her.
I assume that you have been able to let go of feeling guilty about having them - I hope so.
I’m also sorry they had ongoing effects which almost made you unable to bear children later when you wanted them.
Hey Hov, that’s what we’re talking about here…personal experience….the only difference in us is that I have personal experiences with the One who created me…so I’m trying to relay them to ya’ll….the only problem is, non-believers I don’t think believe that we actually have these experiences and I’m not sure how to relay that part.
Tam, you’re not perfect?:-?
HF…good morning! Yes, life & consequences…the ultimate game of Chutes & Ladders. I agree with you totally!
Helen, thanks! No, I feel no more guilt. And I’m sure you know why. But it was quite a long process getting there. I’m actually in the process of writing a book about it all - but dealing more with its effects (consequences) today. The title is “The Day I Told My Daughter”. Which I haven’t done yet. You all will know when I do cuz GG will be shouting from a mountain top!
Thanks Helen for your thoughtfulness and response!
Tam, yes I know why, and you’re welcome
Uh ya, I will definately be shouting from the rooftops…LOL Uh, when does school start?:-\”
The Bible clearly states (OK, I admit I’m already wrong) that ALL sins are forgiveable except blaspheming the holy spirit. So, Hitler could possibly be in heaven, while the Jews and Slavs he murdered burn in hell.
In the eyes of God, to break even one of the commandments is to break them all. This is reiterated by the apostle Paul, but it’s also found in the OT. All sin is sin to god.
Sabbath breakers were stoned without mercy just as if they had commited murder. Possibly, the only reason ALL sins weren’t punishable by death in the OT under god’s theocracy was because there wouldn’t be any people left.
Polly, to keep referring to Old Testament Law in a New Testament world is inaccurate, that’s why He died. Yes, Hitler and anyone else who turns to them in their last moment could be forgiven. Look at the theif on the cross. It was his heart condition as he was dying that saved him.
@Gods Gal,
But the apostle Paul is from the NT and he repeated that to break any one law is the same as breaking all of it.
Also, if god is the same yesterday today and forever, then he hasn’t changed his mind about punishing even the most innocuous of sins with very harshest of penalties - unless one is saved of course. The concept of Hell proves that.
Polly, the text you are referring to is from Romans 4 and is as follows:
Rom 4:13 It is clear, then, that God’s promise to give the whole earth to Abraham and his descendants was not based on obedience to God’s law, but on the new relationship with God that comes by faith.
Rom 4:14 So if you claim that God’s promise is for those who obey God’s law and think they are “good enough” in God’s sight, then you are saying that faith is useless. And in that case, the promise is also meaningless.
When you put it in context, it explains what that means.
I agree with your last statement if you do not belong to Him. It is His right as a Holy God, when His sacrifice and free gift are not accepted. Hell is not a concept to me..it is very real.
Rom 4:15 But the law brings punishment on those who try to obey it. (The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break!)
Rom 4:16 So that’s why faith is the key! God’s promise is given to us as a free gift. And we are certain to receive it, whether or not we follow Jewish customs, if we have faith like Abraham’s. For Abraham is the father of all who believe.
Hello Gods Gal,
Actually I had this passage in mind. I thought it was Paul but it was James who wrote:
James 2:10 - For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
So, no matter how small the sin, it’s the same as breaking the whole law in God’s eyes.
I don’t think it’s right or fair for any being guided by justice to condemn for eternity the sins of a mortal. There’s no harm that any human could perpetrate that would outdo the harm of throwing someone into Hell.
Unlimited punishment for limited sins, violates the most basic principle of justice: that the punishment should be commensurate with the crime.
I know you say that god is above our standards of justice, but, to me, that’s like saying mathematics doesn’t apply to god. Logic is logic. The illogical doesn’t suddenly become logical just because it’s attributed to a “higher” being. If anything, I think the higher being would be MORE reasonable than humans, not less.
All this and we haven’t even gotten to the question, how can a being who claims to BE LOVE (1 John 4:16) ever even think about creating such a horrible place? Surely, love would preclude even the possibility of Hell.
Even of it was mean for Satan and his followers, I would ask, WHY? Why should ANYONE be subjected to eternal torture? Why not just snuff them out of existence? Why the cruelty?
btw - I don’t expect you, or anyone else, to actually answer these questions. There are no answers, either in the Bible or among the best theologians.
Polly, just a quick note to let you know I’m not ignoring you, I’ll answer you questions in the morning with a fresh brain LOL
I really appreciate your heart and honesty….@-)
Hi Polly, I wanted to come back and give my understanding on this scripture…again it’s always dangerous to pick and choose scripture as the writer is usually trying to make a point with an entire chapter or book. This is the case with James. If you continue to read he talkes about the law of liberty in verse 12. He is simply explaining the need for a Savior in the first place. A transgression of Christian rule of faith is transgression of the whole, because it breaks fellowship with the object of faith. We are unable to obtain our goal without Him. Kind of like if you throw something at a mirror, there may be only one crack but the whole image is distorted and the mirror is useless. But now, because of what Christ did, we live under the law of liberty. I know, a million more questions..but I’m done for this week! Have a super weekend!
Thanks Gods Gal, you too.
I will take another look at the chapter in light of what you said.
Sin is to miss the mark. You either hit that bulls eye or you dont. If you miss it by an inch (like speeding a little more) or if you miss it by a whole foot (like murdering someone) it means no real different in the case that its a sin. All sin is punishable by ultimate death in the end of times.
But in all honesty, this doesnt mean a darn thing to us since we all fall under the category of missing the mark. What matters to us is having that sin forgiven. Thats the most important question because regardless if you sinned a whole lot less than the majority, you are still in the same ultimate boat. Sure there might be different punishments but in the end, it doesnt really matter.
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