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A few years ago I realized acceptance is essential to living a happy life. It also occurred to me that acceptance may be simpler for atheists.
When Christians encounter personal suffering or tragedy, there’s always a ‘why’ question that has to be dealt with, namely:
“Why did God, who is all-powerful and claims to love me, allow this to happen?”
When atheists encounter personal suffering or tragedy (any type which isn’t directly caused by another human), it’s ‘just the way it is’. There’s no person behind it to ask ‘why?’ to.
I think this makes such things easier to accept (not easy, but easier) than if God is in the picture.
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OK, I’ve been away and now I’ve been pushed into third place in top talkers. On the plus side I get to leave the first comment here.
As an atheist I still get to ask the “why?” question. I don’t think I’m built not to ask that. The difference, I feel, is that I am actually asking “why” in that I am looking for a cause rather than a reason. For example my mother died of cancer last year. The “why” was because she smoked for 40 years and not because of a divine decision to end her life.
I think that life would be unbearable if such things were dependent on divine will.
That was a long winded way of saying that I agree with you.
Hi hoverfrog, yes, good point that there are ‘why’ questions atheists ask. It makes sense to ask those because they might help us prevent it happening again.
I’m sure Christians ask those too.
@ hoverFrog
Doesn’t always work that way in my opinion I mean there’s nothing in my mother’s health that gave her breast cancer and yet it still happened.
As a Christian though, I didn’t ask that “why god?” question. Instead I did the reasoning why. I generally believe the saying from Ecclesiastes (3:1-8) “To every time there is a season and a purpose under heaven.”
In my mother’s case she went into remission and then noticed that she was having a of coughing but her oncologist said it was something else. Mom then went to her internist where her internist (who also does her own blood work) picked up on the markers for cancer. After her oncologist then tried to push her into experimental cancer treatment (mom had seen a fellow church member who passed on go that direction with this oncologist and didn’t like how she treated her) so she went with a different one.
Btw hoverfrog, I meant to say, sorry about your Mum
athenebelle wrote:
athenebelle, sorry about your mother; I know this is a personal issue - but if I may ask, what possible reason could God have for letting people get cancer?
Doesn’t that bother you at all?
Ahhh The Problem of Evil.
*cue foreboding music here
The greatest test facing those who would believe in the omniscient, omnipotent, and omni-benevolent God.
Philosophers and theologians have been going at this for nearly 2500 years.
We ain’t gonna solve it today either.
For my part I’m trying to understand what the true Christian position is i.e:
Is evil simply the lack of adherence to the will of God OR is Evil the effects of some evil agenc(y)ies?
Scenario A
If it is the former, (lack of adherence to The Divine Will), this implies that evil is to dark as good is to light. Dark simply being the absence of light. There’s no intelligent agency behind evil other than our own exercising of freewill inconsistent with the rule of God.
I find it hard to believe that God, if He exists, would have some part in innocent children to develop horrible & painful illnesses.
So if we aren’t willing to accept that God is directly responsible for this, we have to conclude that there is:
A: Some purpose to His willingness to let it happen. (Though I, in my admittedly limited scope, cannot possibly see any motive for allowing the suffering of a child.)
OR
B. He is unable to intervene.
So which of these two possibilities are we prepared to accept?
Onto Scenario B
Now if it is the latter, Evil is the work of an active agenc(y)ies. Then who is responsible for allowing or unleashing this agency in the Universe?
God is supposedly omniscient (he would have known about this agency) and omnipotent (he has the power to stop this agency).
Yet there is clearly EVIL.
Something has to give somewhere.
You can argue all day long about God giving Adam & Eve the choice to obey or disobey. But, again, He would have known the outcome before hand. Knew there’d be an evil talking snake (which kind of supports to the whole EVIL agency idea
don’t you think?). Yet He allowed all to proceed as recorded in Genesis.
So did Adam & Eve really have freewill at all?
It’s almost as if the young couple were set up to fail.
So where does this leave (humanity).
Are we simply fallen creatures who have strayed from the light of God OR are we pawns in a power struggle between Jehovah and Satan?
Neither is very appealing to my sensibilities!
R
I’m gonna make a bold statement. Allow the missle-firing to begin:
To me, when a Christian (myself included) asks, “why God?” it’s a sign of weak faith.
We either believe it or we don’t.
It is always easy, no. Not even close. But I think if we truly believed it, maybe we’d ask “why?” a bit less, knowing that God is at work in our lives.
Unfortunately/fortunately, believing in God doesn’t earn us an Life Easy Button.
The most recent loss that I experienced was the first time that I didn’t allow myself to ask “why?” I instead decided I’d give God a chance to work. The results blew me away.
Good post, Helen! You’re still one of my favorites!! Especially now that you have an iPhone! haha
Bill wrote:
Bill, no missiles, just a question: so Christians are called to a higher standard than Jesus, who based on your opinion had weak faith?
About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi,[a] lama sabachthani?”—which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
:d
Suffering in any way shape or form is never pleasant. I have had a very rough life of loss, and lost many very dear people to me, including my daughters father…without Jesus-I totally went out of control, I truly was the most destructive person that I have ever met. Not only to myself but to others. Now when dealing with those types of things and healing from the past, I would much rather believe that God has a plan and I may not see it unfold here, but I believe that HE has it all together. Cancer, suicide, bridges falling down…I don’t have the answers to those, but it takes a load off my mind to know that I don’t have to know, God will bring something out of the bad that is glorious. My past will show a person how not to live…suffering is all a part of living. Our reactions and responses are our own.
@Helen…
Interesting point. That’s why I love ya
@Bill-why do you think that asking God “why” is a sign of weak faith? Just wondering…:-?
I think God can handle our whys, and faith is a growing process. Some of my best learning from God came from the “Whys”…maybe not the answer to it, but learning a new character trait of HIS. Always very comforting and personal.
@darla..
I think he can handle our “whys” too.
I guess I just feel like it’s pointless for me to ask “why?” I believe that God knows what’s best for me…and I also believe that he’s constantly growing me, teaching me, breaking me down and building me up.
The way I work, when I ask “Why?” it’s typically because I’m questioning somebody’s motives or purpose. I want to be at a point where I don’t feel that need with God; where I just trust him so much that I can completely surrender all those thoughts/emotions to my trust in his bigger perfect plan. So, for ME, when I ask God why, it could translate to, “Uh…God…you still there? Remember me? I thought you were gonna work this out to be good…you forget about me??”
Maybe I should remember that not everybody thinks like me
Now that I think about it, I guess you’re right, Darla. Sometimes asking “why?” can give God an opportunity to answer us…though I wonder if we have to “remind” him that we’re still waiting for an answer…?? haha, my circle of thoughts
I like this conversation
(wow, I just had to edit this comment…somehow the little Devil emoticon randomly appeared. Hmm….hahaha)
@Bill- It is also like you said first–a weakness in faith, but since it is growing, I don’t expect to have it all together til I get home to heaven. I heard Billy Graham say once that he even had weak points in his faith..so I think asking why is okay..just not something we should probably do as a habit. Like all in HIS face..there is a respect thing there for me too. Sometimes bowing to HIS soveriegnty is the most difficult thing. Even when knowing it is the best.
Not to break into the “why?” mental gymnastics but isn’t it possible that you ask “Why?” when the cognitive dissonance begins to ring too loudly.
Your brain is crying out, “oh sweet guacamole!!! I can’t just accept this anymore!!! I can’t reconcile this faith thing and reality/reason!!!” You may call it “weak faith”, I would call it succombing to the crushing weight of reason. just a thought :-\”
Darla, did you see my comment #7 - even Jesus asked “why” on the cross!
I don’t know what “cognitive dissonance” is so I doubt I hear it ringing. LOL
The beauty in what I believe is that I don’t get to that point anymore “where I just can’t take it”…There is no reason in sucide…at least not for the ones left behind..something can not be reasoned. Sometimes even our discussions here LOL
@Helen- I did see it thanks!
True. I know at least one mostly deconverted person for whom this is very, very difficult. The idea that God wouldn’t give them anything they could not handle is a relabeling of self-confidence without taking responsibility for it. The idea that there is a plan, or that things work out for the best, makes things look a LOT less scary and uncertain. Julia Sweeney spent a good portion of her Letting Go of God monologue dealing with the implications.
If God is all-powerful and loving, this is (by definition) the best of all possible worlds. Is it ? Can you not imagine any way in which this world might be better ? (props to Candide by Voltaire)
@Helen, don’t apologise, you didn’t force her to smoke.
@Everyone, does it not seem like a lot of mental gymnastics to believe in a supreme and benevolent deity who plans for bad things to happen? Surely it is less painful to forego belief in an indifferent or malevolent power in favour of poor genetics, bad planning or chance?
I don’t know that one’s religious beliefs or lack thereof help one to accept or understand suffering better than if one didn’t hold those beliefs (or not hold them, as the case may be).
I think age and experience have more to do with coming to grips with the fact and meaning of suffering here on this earth.
As you get older, you realize that human behavior is the greatest single cause of the suffering of other humans, and that human behavior is also the greatest single cause of the alleviation of that suffering in others.
God isn’t a nasty 12 year old boy burning us all with his magnifying glass, as if we were ants on the sidewalk to him. Nor is God the candyman, rushing in to make everyone’s life all hunky-dory and sweetness and light 24/7.
It’s up to us. We can cause others to suffer, or we can put a stop to as much suffering as we are able. Our choice, and a choice we are faced with a dozen times a day.
There will always be sickness and injury and unforeseen catastrophic events of one kind or another. This is inevitable.
It’s what we do when bad stuff happens to us, what we learn, and how it changes our behavior towards others that matters.
Our own suffering ought to teach us compassion and kindness, charity and generosity.
Our own suffering and the suffering of others isn’t meant to be a personal-attention-grabbing event. It’s not about making other people ooh and aah over how saintly we are when we suffer, or ooh and aah over how we go out of our way to help others.
Suffering isn’t really about you, even when it is about you. It’s about other people, about how our everyday encounters with others changes as a result of the suffering we’ve known.
Suffering is nothing to glorify or idolize, nor is it something to be patronizing about in others. Suffering sucks. We all know it does because we’ve all suffered. So when you see someone suffering, you don’t strike a pious attitude and tell them to “offer it up” or “take it to the cross” or “be like Jesus”. You help them.
Well said Toni. Where is the place for God in that though? For me there isn’t but where does God fit in to suffering for a believer?
Hiya,
It seems like that much of Western Christianity has difficulty merging the two. Like me sitting here, I have difficulty with it.
But in places where they suffer for their faith, it is not at all difficult for the two to meet. In fact, praise for his sovereignty in the mimdst of suffering is the theme always.
The more self-centered our lives the less we need Him.
Proverbs 30:7-9 Two things I ask of you; deny them not to me before I die: Remove far from me falsehood and lying; give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with the food that is needful for me, lest I be full and deny you and say, “Who is the LORD?” or lest I be poor and steal and profane the name of my God.
Great site. I really appreciate the clarity in expression and transparency of the non-believers. Makes it so much easier to talk when someone really knows what you are saying.
yes, mimdst, that’s right
It’s been a few years since she’s passed on so it’s not as hard to answer for me as it might once have been.
I my answer is actually he same as “What reason would God have for people to die?” (I’ll admit that my answer’s going to seem a bi harsh). It’s because if you don’t have a person move on then the world would be overpopulated and the people whom they’ve left behind can begin the process of coming out from under that person’s shadow.
@Jason…
I love the transparency too! To me, this is the way it’s supposed to be.
Good use of “mimdst.”
A google search brought back 54 hits on the word “mimdst”. Sadly no definition of it though.
I think I missed the definition of “mimdst” - can someone explain it to me?
I agree with Toni.
My guess is that there is no difference between Christians and atheists when it comes to asking the question “why” when faced with a personal tragedy.
My perception is that the belief that no matter how much suffering we experience on earth when we die we will be joining god in heaven could help a Christian through a time of crisis.
My uncle was a devout Catholic. The last few months of his life were spent suffering with cancer. He knew that when he died he would be joining his wife in Heaven. I believe this knowledge helped him more than all the medication his doctors gave him.
I can understand why a Christian might feel guilty about asking God “why” because asking the question seems to imply they are judging God. A person might be a Christian but they are also human. I can’t think how any caring person, Christian or atheist, could not ask the question “why” after seeing a loved one suffer and die.
As an atheist the answer as to why people have to suffer is that life is sometimes just not fair. This isn’t much help when trying to get past a personnel crisis.
The important thing is not to spend too much time asking “why”. We get on with learning how to overcome our grief or we spend the rest of our lives feeling sad. I think depression effects atheist as much as is does Christians.
I don’t think there is any magical answer to suffering, with God or life.
Jason are you saying that people who suffer for their faith never struggle with that?
I’ve already mentioned this today, but if you’re right, why did Jesus on the cross cry out “Father why have you forsaken me?”
@Helen…
I believe it was a typo
oh, ok, I thought it was a clever acronym that I couldn’t guess
Ed, thanks for your comments. Yes, I think we all need to move through the grief process in order to get to enough acceptance to continue with our lives. If a “why?” question is part of that process we need to make peace with it.
me is more studious dung typer
mimsdt
Hi Helen,
I am certain that people who suffer for their faith have lots of . But these sorts of converstations are not common among them.
Christ’s cry makes for very interesting speculation and I think there are some possibilities which are better than others, but no one really knows. Anything I would say is theologically speculative, and certainly I would be giving no help to someone going through something right now.
Thanks for asking for clarification.
oh for cryin out loud..
“lots of QUESTIONS”
dung typer indeed.
As always, I’m replying before reading anyone else’s comments, so I may be redundant.
I am so much less stressed now that I’m not worried that god might suddenly decide:
a) It’s time to test and strengthen my faith with adversity
b)correct or punish me for some unintentional or unavoidable sin
or
c)bring glory to his name by giving me strength in hardship.
It’s such a relief to know that life’s crap is random. And as you note, it never occurs to me to ask “why.”
Polly, that’s how I feel - I find it a big relief also.
Hiya,
You know I was thinking more and more about your question and, just as you said about the importance of mind set or attitude, I can see how it might be easier for the atheist.
But, Polly, what I noticed about your post here at the tail end was “stressed” and “worried” and it is no wonder that you feel better. That’s sad to me, because that is not my personal experience. The picture in my head is one of loving guidance, which is always easy to say when everything is fine, but I have been greatly blessed in times of agonizing stress and calamity in my own life in which the beautiful Spirit upheld me. My understanding, and thereby, attitude, was not and is not one of worry. I’m so sorry for that experience of yours, both of you.
If I may, the drummer for the band Rush is a very intelligent, first-water materialist. About 6 years ago his wife and only child died in a car accident. Here is what he wrote (yes, rock lyrics, I know) in a song called “..and the stars look down”
What is the meaning of this?
And the stars look down
What are you trying to do?
And the stars look down
Was it something I said
And the stars look down
And here it seems that his own attitude drifts into territory different than yours.
Just seeing the contrast between you and Neil (Rush guy) and the old you and me, it all is an interesting juxtapostion.
Thanks for posing a toughie.
Perhaps it is easier for us unbelievers because we don’t have an expectation of fairness in the world. I am assuming that a benevolent and all powerful deity who accepts the earnest prayers of his followers would work to ensure that the world is at least fair if not a paradise. If not then what is the purpose of prayer except as a form of meditation?
HoverFrog:
I suppose it depends on your definition of God.
But how does one’s own suffering teaching one compassion towards others NOT leave room for God, by anyone’s definition?
Wasn’t Christ all about encounter? About what you brought to the other guy?
Well Toni, you don’t actually have to suffer to feel compassion for another. More often the suffering itself consumes a person’s attention to such an extent that they simply cannot spare any for someone else.
I agree that the central message of a church or a religion should be about reaching out and helping others. I don’t see it in evidence though. At least not in the majority.
@hov…
That inspires me to move to action.
Go for it Bill. Change the world.
Hiya Hoverfrog,
I am unclear on fair or fairness. Not being picky or semantically challenged, it is just that that word means so many different things depending on the worldview of the person.
If I may ask a question, fairness, as you see the word, seems to be a virtue in your mind. And I am really just wanting to understand how you get to the question: How can you see fairness as a virtue and yet not expect it, that is, if it is something that you long for, and yet it doesn’t come, and you rightly are discouraged and disappointed when it doesn’t come, isn’t that the same as expecting it, or expecting that others should be pursuing it, as you do the church?
Thanks
Organized churches are human institutions and subject to all the flaws and abuses and pitfalls of any other human institutions. I wouldn’t worry about what you do or do not find in a church. There’s something small and control-freaky about organized religion, to me, anyway. God doesn’t need us to organize him and dole him out to those some elite clique deem worthy.
I guess there are too many people, atheists, Christians, whatever, who think of God as the grand puppetmaster. I don’t think God is that personally involved in the minutiae of every single individual’s life. He set this thing in motion, and he’s happy to let it play itself out according to the laws of the natural world he created. He’s not a cheater, you know? Doesn’t change the rules midstream.
It can be difficult to see past ourselves when we’re in the midst of something awful or painful or emotionally/spiritually devastating. Thing is, we do eventually get through these things, and it’s then that our experiences ought to help us find compassion for those who are in the middle of something similar.
Often, people who are dealing with something seemingly unsurmountable aren’t very attractive people. They’re angry, frightened, in pain, etc., and that can make people hard to be around. It can be hard to scrape together enough compassion to get past the defense mechanisms and armor people in pain (physical, emotional or spiritual) use to protect themselves when they’re at their most vulnerable.
I see about the same level of compassion coming from atheists, Hindus, Wiccans, Catholics, etc. There are Christians who are insensitive and uncaring, and atheists who are insensitive and uncaring. And vice versa. And everything in between and across and up, down and under. One’s belief system (or eschewment thereof) doesn’t seem to have nearly as much to do with one’s ability to act compassionately as age, wisdom, and personality do.
Religion isn’t going to make you good. Only you can make you good. God can’t even make you good. Goodness is a free choice that you and you alone ultimately make.
Jason, fairness to me is simply receiving back in some way the same as you put in. It’s a very westernised version of karma.
Of course it is very naive and not a little selfish to assume that any good act I commit will be returned to me. However I think that prayer is a method of asking that this be made the case. You know: “Dear god, haven’t I been kind and charitable? Please let me pass this test.” Furthermore isn’t there an expectation that reality will be changed to benefit the religious person?
For the record I much prefer the eastern idea of karma. The “do good because it encourages others to do good” theory rather than the “do good so you can get good bad” theory.
@Toni, you mean we’re not just Sims characters to God?
I like the idea of goodness being a free choice. I ownder if it isn’t just a product of upbringing though.
ok, in the past months i have accepted that there is a god and that he is a devine ruling over our lifes. however, i do not go to church and do not read the bible, but i belive in the christian god, does this make me a christian?
Ive heard in a phillosophy lesson that god can be worshiped in anypart of the world, not just a church. am i a christian?