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Happy Monday!!!!
I was thinking about ya’ll this weekend, and how unique you are, how much you mean to me in such a short time of blogging. Blogging on this site has been quite an experience. I have built up a trust with many of you and feel I can be myself and not get ripped apart, I hope. I’m tackling a rough issue today…so bear with me.
I understand that my [tag]atheist [/tag]friends don’t believe in [tag]Heaven [/tag]or [tag]Hell[/tag], but I do. I was thinking back on a man that I loved dearly who died about 9 years ago. I struggle to this day because he is the only person I know for a fact personally who denied [tag]Christ [/tag]until his last breath. It has been one of the worst struggles I’ve had since I began my walk with Christ. In Luke 16:22-28, Jesus gives us a picture of hell:
Finally the beggar died and was carried by the [tag]angels [/tag]to be with [tag]Abraham[/tag], the rich man also died and was buried, and his soul went to the place of the dead. There in torment, he saw Lazarus in the far distance with Abraham. The rich man shouted, “Father Abraham, have some pity! Send [tag]Lazarus [/tag]over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in these flames.” But Abraham said to him, “Son, remember that during your lifetime you had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing. So now he is here being comforted, and you are in anguish. And besides, there is a great chasm separating us. Anyone who wanted to cross over to you from here is stopped at its edge, and no one there can cross over to us.” Then the rich man said, “Please, Father Abraham, send him to my father’s home. For I have five brothers, and I want him to warn them about this place of torment so they won’t have to come here when they die.”
Ok, now, I know what some of you are thinking and that we have discussed why serve a God who would allow this? And I am not one to dwell on the hellfire and brimstone stuff. One of the hardest things for me is that nice people could end up here, while murderers and such could end up in Heaven. It’s been touched on before, but I think it warrants a day of discussion……
Several years ago a book was published, entitled [tag]Beyond Death’s Door[/tag] by [tag]Dr. Maurice Rawlings[/tag]. Dr. Rawlings, a specialist in [tag]Internal Medicine[/tag] and [tag]Cardiovascular Disease[/tag], resuscitated many people who had been clinically dead. Dr. Rawlings, a devout atheist, “considered all religion ‘hocus-pocus’ and death nothing more than a painless extinction”. But then he resuscitated a man who was actually screaming to get him out of hell…
Popularity: 14% [?]
Hey GG, good post. If the assumption is that a person goes to heaven or hell based on redemption by a sincere belief in Jesus and honest repentance rather than on the cumulative number of good and bad deeds committed then I think heaven is a very unfair place and I don’t want to go.
My assumption is that we lose conciousness when we die and cease to exist as a person. Our bodies will rot and the brain that houses our minds will come apart and break up. That will be the end. No heaven, no hell. It is much more comforting to me than the prospect of wasting my dying moments wondering if I am sincere enough in my belief in an unseen entity. It is also much more comforting to believe that deceased friends and family don’t suffer because they chose a different path.
“But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveler returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have,
Than fly to others we know not of.”
Hamlet.
If I’m wrong, well. C’est la vie.
WOW Hov, your whole first paragraph was only two sentences….you impress me!!:d
Doesn’t it bother you tho that that is all there is? I mean, what’s the point?
Not to answer for hoverfrog . . . I can’t see looking at the life as “all there is”. We have a set amount of time of this earth to explore, learn, love, talk, sing, or do whatever we want. It is a fantastic experience and everyday is a new adventure. Without death this life would have no meaning. So no it doesn’t bother me.
Does a place of eternal happiness sound wonderful? Sure it sounds great, but it also sounds like something you tell people to help them cope with death. I see heaven as a comfort to the living more than a destination after we die.
What is the point if there is a afterlife? Does this change the way you live your life? For me, “the point” is to live a good life, be a caring father/husband/friend, and try to make the world a better place.
Hi God’s Gal, I see you’re guest posting again
What increasingly bothered me was the belief that the point was to get to heaven and most people were missing the point. I feel much happier now I think the point is somewhat up to us. If we care we can try to make the world a better place. If we don’t then…I guess the point is just to have fun or make money or whatever…
Helen!!!! Where ya been???;) Missed you!
Happynat: If there is the slightest chance that what the theist is saying is true, does this not concern you?? If the experience this man had was something beside lack of oxygen or something explainable, it doesn’t cause you the least bit of concern? That’s scary to me. I know for a fact that the spiritual realm is real, and God is as real to me as your blog entries. I suppose I have come to care about you guys to a point where it bothers me….sorry, I’m a softy. I agree Helen, the point is up to us, we all have a choice. Nothing on the whatever list you mentioned, could ever fill the void until I had my Jesus. I understand now alot that I didn’t before..it all makes sense.
Hi God’s Gal!
Ummm…I’ve been here and there, doing this and that…hopefully there was some point to it
On near death experiences(NDE):
From Dr. Rawlings’s book:
http://www.newhope.bc.ca/96-04-20.htm
“When he asked me to pray for him I felt downright insulted. I told him to shut up, I’m a doctor, not a minister or a psychiatrist. Then the nurse gave me that expectant look. What would you do? That’s when I composed a make believe prayer. I made him repeat the prayer to keep him off my back. Say it! Jesus Christ son of God, Keep me out of Hell. And a very strange thing took place. He was no longer that wild-eyed screaming lunatic. It was then that I too became a Christian.”
The above sounds to me like the patient had a panic attack resulting from the hallucination he had while being operated on.
I am not surprised that telling this patient what he wants to hear calms him down. That is just simple physiology.
Dr. Rick Strassman gives a more scientific explanation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Strassman ,
” His theory states that the experience of looming death is an extremely strange paradox to a living organism - and therefore it will start the NDE: during the NDE, the individual becomes capable of “seeing” the brain performing a scan of the whole episodic memory (even prenatal experiences), in order to find a stored experience which is comparable to the input information of death. All these scanned and retrieved bits of information are permanently evaluated by the actual mind, as it is searching for a coping mechanism out of the potentially fatal situation. Kinseher feels this is the reason why a near-death experience is so unusual.”
“The theory also states that out-of-body experiences, accompanied with NDEs, are an attempt by the brain to create a mental overview of the situation and the surrounding world. The brain then transforms the input from sense organs and stored experience (knowledge) into a dream-like idea about oneself and the surrounding area.”
I don’t see any reason to think NDE visions of heaven or hell are anything more than hallucinations.
On Hell:
I am interested in knowing what kind of a place my Christian friends think hell is.
What did you tell your children when they asked about hell?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell
“Luke 12:5 records Jesus speaking about God’s Judgment: “But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath Power to cast into Hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear Him.”
“In Paul’s letter to the Thessalonian church he seemingly describes a separation taking place: “The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels, In flaming fire taking Vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the Presence of the Lord, and from the Glory of his Power” (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).”
I can see where the fear of hell might scare a child into behaving. I doubt that this fear would do much to motavate an adult to lead a “proper” life.
As a non-believer I don’t think hell exist. If it did I can’t think of anything worse that having to endlessly listen to Bobby Goldsboro whine about “Honey” :-t
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey_%28Bobby_Goldsboro_song%29
Did I really freak everyone out that bad???
Honestly it causes me no worries or concern. I’ve gotta run for now. I’ll type more later assuming I don’t die before then.
@Bill
As I understand it the only why a murderer could end up in Heaven is if they redeemed themselves to God before they died. Tam in a previous thread referenced the apostle Paul.
My perception is that some branches of the Christian faith think that even a non-believer could end up in heaven. It’s also my perception that most Christians believe that we must accept God in our lives to get to heaven.
I can accept that because I don’t believe in God I would I not join him in heaven, if he in fact did exist. That doesn’t bother me at all.
I don’t see how the non-belief in God could in it’s self send an atheist to a burning hell. Any religion that preaches this can “go fly a kite” as far as I am concerned.
@Ed-sorry to hear that..but I do like flying kites;)
This is really how I see it…If I am wrong, then I did live a good life and made a difference where I am, taught good healthy principles and values to my children…if I am right in my beliefs, then I have everything to gain. I am not much of a gambler as I do not like to lose. So as I see it, I lose nothing by believing that Jesus is the only way to heaven and the only way to escape the wrath of God. Sin has to be paid for…either accept that jesus paid it for you or pay it ourselves.
Have you ever been tortured for any amount of time? The kind that makes you beg for it to end…I think Hell is worst than that, and it won’t ever end.
Although we debate the that God is good, even in this HE is good because HE has provided a way out, it is our own choice to choose heaven or hell. So in that light it is not God sending a soul to hell as much as the soul choosing to go there.
let me see..party or hell.mmmmmmmmmm I choose party!
Ed, I believe you have until your last breath to make that choice. I’m speaking of the theif on the cross now. He understood and believed while he was in the process of dying that Jesus Christ was who He said He was. That’s when he said, today you will be with me in paradise. But yes I do believe you have to choose, and that if you don’t acknowledge Him, He will deny you. You asked what I told my children, what I told them was, and now that they are grown have chosen for themselves, is that there is a life without God and a life with God. There is an eternity without God and one with as well. It’s up to them. I don’t think God wants us to come to Him out of fear, it’s His goodness and love that leads us to Him. But at the same time, He doesn’t make lite of an eternal decision either.
Wow GG! What have you gotten yourself into now?:o
I’m not sure of a question in this thread so I’ll just give my own view on Heaven, Hell and God. All 3, I believe, exist. If you don’t, fine.
I believe Heaven is being in the Presence of God - the eternal Presence of Him.
I believe Hell is being eternally separated from Him.
I believe God does not choose our destination. We do. I believe, in His mercy, he has provided options beyond our physical death just like Darla said. I believe there is more than this life and I am putting my hope, my faith, in that. AND, I can still have fun on my way out just like the rest of you.
A theory was mentioned about NDE’s - basically it’s a fight or flight moment. And I agree. If I’m in a NDE and see Hell before me…you better believe I’m fighting!b-(
Thanks for your input Tam, just a little friendly chatting. :d/
Acutally, you know my heart and that I have come to care a great deal about our friends here….just trying to see what’s real to them and what’s not.
Guys, I have to get home. I will try get my computer up and running so I can continue this conversation….if not, I’ll be back in the morning. Thank you for your comments, I welcome ALL of them.
GG/Tam-glad to hook up with y’all this is a rare moment!W00T!
Don’t you think it is odd that we (as humans) find so many things to stand for and to fight for, and when it comes to this topic..I am always at a loss, due to this is the most important to me. I just love the Lord so much, and I am so grateful that HE has provided a way out for us to spend eternity with the one who truly loves us. And the world has so little regard for HIM.
I understand we all don’t think the same, but that doesn’t make it any easier on my heart. Who really does not want the better and want to leave behind the worst? I think our present time and age has been lied to, and has been told everything is about us, when it can be better if everything is about HIM.
Sorry didn’t mean to get on my soap box…its really heart breaking at times.:((
God’s Gal wrote:
It doesn’t bother me at all.
Does it bother you at all that God might not exist? If not then maybe that’s similar to me not being at all bothered this theist might be saying something true.
@Darla:
“Ed-sorry to hear that..but I do like flying kites”
I picked on kite flying because it’s something I never was good at. I took kite flying lessons from Charlie Brown (Peanuts), Run, run, run …..up, up and away. Crash! :((
I can understand Tam’s description of hell. “I believe Hell is being eternally separated from Him.” Since I don’t believe in God I should not expect to join him in heaven when I die.
I also agree with you Darla that sin has to be paid for. If I was a unrepentant murderer I should expect to burn in hell forever.
However if I spent my whole life helping people but God still condemned me to a burning hell solely because I didn’t believe in him. This is a God I would speak out against.
For me the only sins are those we commit against other people. It’s people that count to me not God.
ED-I am a sinner and sometimes I sin against people, and sometimes it is against God because I know that HE wants me to be obedient to HIM and sometimes I am not. So I am grateful for HIS grace and mercy that HE extends to me, and the forgiveness I get when I repent. I am sure this is hard to understand…HE is real to me, I talk to HIM everyday, and sometimes throughout my day, and HE answers me. HE is not the angry God that HE is made out to be, but actually the most loving and compassionate I have ever known. I am in constant need of do-overs, so I am grateful.
Maybe some time I could show you how to cheat at flying a kite! LOL I do cheat, and I start in the middle of a very big hill and work my way to the top. just leaving the string out as I climb..then tie it down and just sit and check out the site! hey sites flying kites!
Have a good night…it is getting late here and I need to get up at 5am. Good night all!
This time difference makes me miss out. Living in the future can be a drag.
Not at all. Having one life with no “forever after” makes me appreciate this one all the more. Oh, HappyNat said that.
If there is then I’m in serious trouble. However I don’t think that the hypothetical theist is right.
Absolutely right. An omniscient being must, by the very definition, know everything. As such it should be able to judge things perfectly and would therefore be unable to be unfair. Ignoring the argument that omniscience cannot equate with omnipotence for a moment. Upon my death I would be judged and allocated a place in eternity based on the wholeness of my being rather than a final statement at the end of my life. Only if I’m wrong though.
To be perfectly honest, no-one has been dead, visited heaven or hell and returned so I just don’t know what, if anything awaits me. My experiences to date suggest that there is nothing after death and, as such, I needn’t worry about it. It’s not as if I can avoid dying, is it?
hf, it must be awful for you
It’s not all silver suits and flying cars you know. :d
Everyone would want this and this is one reason why religion/christianity are such a confort/draw to many people. The idea of heaven is great but is cheapens the life we have on earth. What do these 80 years in our human body mean if we have a blissful eternity waiting for us when we die?
Darla: I so agree with you. Soapbox anytime…We are in such a meitis place in society now, I don’t see things getting better til they get much worse. Love your comments…..
Helen: I think it is extremely different. Being bothered by the fact that God does not exist can’t compare to the fact that you may die one day and realize He did, it won’t be an oops, time to play poker with my friends day, it will be an eternity of sorrow, knowing that you refused Him. I don’t see anything similar.
@ Happynat- How does what I believe cheapen my life here and now?
Late entry - forgive me. Interesting discussion with the usual ‘nothing is going to change my belief’ malarkey - how sad. Does ANYONE see a benefit in the ‘other side’s’ view of Life that they could incorporate into their own view somehow? Anyone? At All?
To thy own self be true really gets stuffed by some kinds of what passes for ‘logic’ i guess
Errr.. HappyNat? A Question!
‘Without death this life would have no meaning’.
‘For me, “the point” is to live a good life, be a caring father/husband/friend, and try to make the world a better place.’
You mind trying to explain to me how those two statements are not contradictory?
I mean if the ‘point’ is to live a good life and try to make the world a happier better place, what if you completely fail to do that? I believe quite a significant number of us do just that - fail utterly and miserably in such an aim - so then presumably there was no point to their life at ALL and their death equally had no good meaning? In fact, their death was what probably prevented them from learning the secret to having a good life?
So did you mean the actual point is the TRYING to have a good life? But then what about the slugs who see no need to even try - they are just in life for what they can get out of it (and out of you for that matter). Is there a point to their life, do you think?
Would they, and we, be better off if they just hurried up and died? To give their worthless lives a little more meaning?
I just can’t quite see it that way myself - perhaps you could help a dude out?
Hov, statistically speaking, 1 out of every 1 person will die….but I have to disagree with you, there are many counts of people who have died and come back. Several minutes to almost an hour. I gave an account in the Bible that was an experience of someone who had died. I beleive there was a good reason why that is in there. If you were to die, and God spoke to you directly, and you came back, you would probably still think of a reason (lack of exygen etc) why you had the experience. Some people will just refuse no matter what….your still my favorite froggie tho
Ahhh Silver suits…how fun!
@lovewillbringus together-I think I do agree with the other thinking in as much as we all want to live the best life we can and make a difference. Our differences is what motivates that, and what will honestly work in our opinions. I will never have the power to change a heart or a mind, But I rest in the fact that I know One who does!:d/
Lovewill: REALLY glad you’ve come aboard! Love your blog!:)
GG, I read that vegetarians are 60% less likely to die that meat eaters. Sadly the sentence was incomplete or I’d dispute your 1 out of 1 claim. Actually I will anyway. To show that 100% of people die then everybody who has ever lived must actually have died. As I am clearly alive then this claim is false.
I’m in a pedantic mood. :d
Hover, you make my head hurt!!! Actually, to further your statement, the body is the only part that dies, the soul and spirit are eternal, so to clarify, every persons body has or will die, every soul and spirit will live eternally, whether people believe it in this lifetime or not…:d
LWBUT, are you trying to get the meaning of life out of us poor sad souls? Crumbs! :((
I used to be motivated by the idea that life meant propagating my species, now it’s about ensuring the success of my progeny. All the while I hope to do more good than harm in the world and I’d rarely fault anyone for wishing the same.
I think HappyNat is saying that immortality would make living a very different experience from the 0-140 years that we currently get. That the prospect of death gives the moments of life more meaning.
GG, would you have it any other way?
WOW!!!
Clearly I missed a heck of topic yesterday.
To add my own, albeit late, two cents:
Just because I count of myself in the atheist camp DOES NOT in any sense mean that I think that my death is the END.
Having not experienced death how can I speak intelligently about who or what is behind the ‘door’?
I have no evidence for an existence beyond the physical world we all seem to exist in. So i try to live my life in such a way as to make the world a better place for my having lived.
That said…
We have five senses by which we perceive the world. Who is to say that what we sense is all there is?
Maybe what we perceive as all that is, is merely the slightest shadow of what really is.
There’s a great Albert Brooks movie that came out in the early 90’s. it’s called “Defending Your life”.
The movie presumes to answer what happens after death. Human existence it says is a place where souls come to learn to deal with fear. At the end of a life the soul comes to this place to ‘Defend the Life’ just lived. The soul is judged on how they dealt with key moments of fear during that life. Based on that judgment the soul ‘moves on’ or is sent back to ‘try again’.
It’s a great movie. Funny, touching but with a deep message.
Myself, I don’t worry about what happens after I stop breathing.
If I live honestly and compassionately, the rest will work itself out!
R
LWBUT wrote:
I don’t understand your all-or-nothing thinking. We will all fail somewhat because we’re human. So what? If we succeeded to some extent (very likely) then that counts.
It’s only Christianity which imposes the strange requirement of ‘perfection’, which is nowhere found in real human lives.
No - it’s all the little things that go well; the good choices we make etc.
In real life those things count.
I don’t know.
No - but isn’t that a logical conclusion about Christianity, that it would be better if all Christians hurried up and died so they could get to heaven and past this sin-cursed life? In other words it seems like what you say could be turned around and said within the Christian framework, since heaven is where it’s at.
I tried to share my view a bit…hope it helped…anyway welcome to this blog LWBUT. My personal website is called Love is the most excellent Way. Maybe my site and your screenname are related
God’s Gal, I suppose what it is is, I don’t think I’m any more likely to go to hell than you think you are, so those stories about hell don’t have any impact on me.
I don’t think anyone’s going to hell though, which I realize is different from your belief. I just think it’s so ridiculous it’s not going to happen.
(Sorry if I am being outspoken to the point of not being respectful today)
Hey Robert, I was wondering what happened to you!!!! Glad you’re back. For what it’s worth I don’t believe you’re in the atheist camp. As long as you feel like claiming that it’s fine, but I don’t believe you’re there.
Anyway, can you honestly say that what you felt that night under the stars was only felt with your five senses? I don’t think so, you felt something much bigger than yourself. I hope you dwell on, think about and seek THAT part of your self out more….:)
Helen: I know you understand my way of thinking. I do believe that people who deny God are going to Hell. Period. It doesn’t stop me from loving a non-believer, or having compassion for them same as a believer. People who don’t believe beyond themselves I feel are decieved, and enjoy not having to give account for their actions to anyone. God isn’t up there with a stick, but He is there and made it very clear what will happen….there is nothing anyone can do for those who snub Him til the end.
GG wrote:
Yes, I understand.
I don’t think that’s fair. I am accountable to my husband, kids, friends, anyone I work for…I DO have to give an account.
I don’t think it’s at all clear but I respect that you find it clear.
@GG
Not to be glib here, but which other sense would I have perceived it with?
That wasn’t the first time I have experienced that kind of feeling. I have such experiences often:
- When I first had an understanding Einsteins theory of General Relativity.
- Watching shooting stars over Moosehead Lake in Maine when I was 16 and in the Boy Scouts
- The birth of my children.
- Working on my family genealogy.
All these experiences have something in common:
The all have something to do with transcendence. I am being confronted with something that transcends my being letting me know there’s so much more yet to learn and experience.
I would characterize it as a feeling of peace and harmony. While I cannot speak to the ultimate source of this ‘feeling’, you can feel free to speculate all you like.
Maybe it’s just resonant chemistry in my brain or maybe it’s something more…
Either way it does nothing to diminish the effect!
R
@Gods Gal
@ Gods Gal
“I know you understand my way of thinking. I do believe that people who deny God are going to Hell.”
What kind of place to you think Hell is?
A hell like Tam’s which is not being with God?
The burning, fiery hell?
What happens to someone who spends their whole living in the jungle and has never even been exposed to western culture or Christianity? I know at least some of these tribes believe that Gods inhabit the trees and animals of the jungle, not the one God of Christianity.
What happens to children born with severely under developed brains? Are these children born with souls?
How could God allow(?) such children to be born in the first place?
Helen, I didn’t word that right sorry…
Speaking with my athiest friends, alot of times I hear that they don’t want to think about being under the authority of a God, and that there may be consequences to their actions from Him….that’s what I meant..my bad
Robert: Your not being glib, and the other sense would be your spiritual sense. Einstein has nothing on Gods realitivity, and if you truly want to seek out every aspect that could possibly be, than this would have to be one of them. Correct? I do believe that chemical things are going on, but that they are not the cause….you bet I’ll speculate!!! LOL :d/
@GG
This is the type of thing I have the hardest time with.
I have to agree with Helen here. I don’t think the Bible makes anything particularly clear. If it was clear we wouldn’t have dozens of different versions of ‘The Holy Bible’ or thousands of different flavors of Christianity.
I know you are one of those more inspired Christians who says she doesn’t have a religion so much as a relationship with her Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
My problem, and I think it might be Helen’s too, is it doesn’t end with your relationship. For some reason people of strong religious conviction tend to get it in their heads that the way they are spiritually is the only way.
Where does that come from?
Doesn’t a devout peaceful Muslim living in Saudi Arabia have an equal claim to the God’s favor?
Did this Muslim have a choice as to where he would be born? Is it his fault that he lives in a country where Christianity is considered ‘incomplete’ at best and pure apostasy at worse?
Is it MY fault that I felt from an early age, though I was ensconced in it, that Christianity was not the way for me?
I cannot wrap my head around the idea of the almighty being somehow slighted because I haven’t chosen the proper way to honor him.
I think we are touching on the deepest rift between the theists and the atheists here.
Robert
love(do you mind if I call you love?),
If I fail to do that it is my problem, I pretty sure through my actions I will leave the world a better place but who knows for sure?
For myself, trying to lead a good life and leave the world better is the point of MY life. I can not speak for others or tell them the point of their lives. If they want to watch pregancy test results on Maury 24 hours a day and feel they are living their life to the fullest, I can’t hold that against them.
Maybe the point of life is figuring out the point of your own life?
GG, summed up my reason for death giving meaning to life very well. If we are going to be around forver and ever and ever(longer than we can grasp in our mind) then the time we are here on earth is so small it loses meaning.
Ed, I believe every created being has a purpose. I have worked with handicapped children and they bless my socks off. There are many of them who have wisdom and insight far beyond any “normal” person, and have a great testimony. Yes, Tam’s description of Hell is right on. God’s spirit is here in this world, His church is still here…when it is removed, I can’t imagine the “hell” that will be happening here. The presence of God will be gone. God’s word says that everyone will have the chance, jungle or not to make a decision. There are thousands of stories out there from believers, tribes of every nation, that He revealed Himself to in the deepest parts of the World, so I have no doubts there. Everyone has a soul, everyone has a choice.
Robert: Revelation is very clear about the end…..I think the hang up is, people think all gods lead to Heaven. They want to think of eternal happy happy joy joy stuff, but deny the one that can get ya there. I agree that ones spirituality is their own, mine is way different than anyone elses, and I also believe that we each have a specific purpose, so it needs to be different. Did that make sense?
Man-made or dead gods, just don’t cut it for me, which is usually the case in most other religions. I would much rather worship a God that knows my most-inner being than try to find peace with an idol or man-made god with zero power.
Nothing is a fault Robert, we’re all learning together….I’ve learned alot from you and hopefully have given you some stuff to chew on. I think your former experiences in Christianity have been religious. I’m talking relationship. It’s an important part of the faith and walk. Would your wife be slighted if you found another woman because she didn’t cut the mustard for ya? I hope not. God isn’t slighted, He just wants you to understand who He is and acknowledge Him in your life….that’s all. The other stuff comes as He then reveals Himself to you, and you see the bigger picture.
Helen says,
@GG
WOW!!! That sounds almost ‘touchey-feely new-agey’!
Let me ask ya this…
If I were to come to understand and them acknowledge God, but called it by a different name….say the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Would that be sufficient?
My point is I think we are getting to tied up in aesthetics here.
If I revere what I consider to be God and I feel that I am talking to Him and receiving wisdom from Him… is that enough?
Surely I have learned much from you and I respect you greatly.
Comparing my wife to GOD?! I think that’s a bad analogy!!! Especially knowing my wife!
R
Robert says,
Sorry I am jumping in on a conversation, but that sounds spiritual not “new agey”. Call it what you want, but our relationship with God is a spiritual one first and foremost and so it is deeply motivated by His work through and in us.
God’s Gal, thanks for the clarification.
InWorship, I was thinking of the Christian belief that people are required to be perfect to go to heaven. I was referring to any forms of Christianity which include that belief.
In that belief system the only reason imperfect humans can get there is because God is somehow able to credit Jesus’ perfection to them. For some reason he only does that for people who believe in him.
@inWorship
Poe-TAY-toe Poe-TA-toe
To-MAY-toe To-MAY-toe
I know plenty of people New Age earthy crunchy types who would give you fits over the definitions of spirituality.
It’s all perspective and what you accept as divine revelation.
Robert
Helen - Gotcha, then I guess by your definition, we all(Christians) have that belief. We are made perfect, not because of anything we can do, but because of what Jesus did for us.
I wonder why so many have a problem with this. Does everyone get pissed when you can’t enter Sams Club or Costco because you don’t have a membership card? And if they do, does that change the process? I know, bad analogy…
Thank you Robert for supplying yet another example of people who are so far off…..Naw, God is very hands on so to speak in our lives, but is Spiritual, and our walk and communication is spiritual as well. When your “what you consider God to be” turns to “Who you consider God to be” you’ll be gettin it my friend. Comparing your wife to God? NOPE! But then again she wouldn’t want to be referred to as anyone but herself would she? That could cause all sorts of problems….like B said, our motivation comes from Him alone.
@inWorship
The arrogance in that statement alone is enough to make me see red.
You know what I hear when that is said?
This is what I hear…
Christianity = RIGHT and GODLY
EVERYTHING ELSE = WRONG and of the Devil
R
InWorship, I would get upset if a) I couldn’t find anywhere where I could buy a costco card or b) I paid for one and someone waved their hand in the air and claimed to have given me an invisible immaterial card c) if not having one meant the authorities could come get me from my house and torture me as much as they wanted d) if my great-great-great-grandparents destroyed my costo card and I was getting blamed for that…
Which is to say, yes, I don’t quite think the analogy fits…
Sorry the quotes thing freaked out…the last paragraph is me :d
Good we agree :d
I gotta get some lunch and then accomplish some work. I’ll be back later this afternoon to see what’s up
Helen said:
Uuuuhhh, YA!!!!
Helen, if you had a big piece of property that you had invested your lifetime into preparing for some one to live on forever and you had your mind set on 2 individuals. They knew you were working on this just for them. The day comes when you have completed it…spent years in hard labor in anticipation just to say…Here you go friends…this is just for you! How would you feel if one of them looked you in the face and said to…”You are worthless! What a moron for spending your whole time on this. And by the way, it looks like crap too. Oh, also, I think you’re pretty dumb and what you did here on this land looks terrible, I could have done so much better.” You have a choice to allow this person to reap all you have invested in. it’s your call. Could you honestly say - you would give them the deed - when you don’t have to?
I am in no way comparing this to God and what he has prepared. I am trying to make it a personal application and example so need to draw comparisons to God on this. I’m just curious…would you really lay down and let that person, who apparently detest you, walk all over you?
WOW Tam, great analogy, you bless my socks off! :d/
Tam, there is no analogy that works with me in it because I can’t infinitely torture people who don’t behave as I’d like them to. I don’t even think I would if I could - that would be going too far.
If I wouldn’t then it’s unthinkable that a God who is more LOVING than me would.
That’s why the belief about hell is unthinkable to me and so I’m not going to spend one more second of my life worrying about whether I or anyone else is going to end up there.
Well, supposedly there was this guy who did that - actually, they didn’t walk on him, they nailed him to a cross and left him there to die.
So you tell me - did he really do that and then did he really say “follow me”?
My analogy had nothing to do with Jesus’ sacrifice for you Helen.
I was simply asking if YOU would still let that person have the deed to your property?
Since you brought this into my analogy anyways let me say it this way. If after this person spit on your face you still gave them a choice to take the deed because you wanted them so badly to have this forever. You knew how much they would get in return from it. So you lovingly explain to them that you are indeed hurt by their actions but that you really want them to give it a shot here? You tell them if they still choose, in the end, that it all was a waste of time then they can’t have the deed. The end comes, they tell you, “Yep, I heard what you said and I still think you’re an idiot and that you’re pointless.” Would you give in or would you withhold the deed knowing you gave him every opportunity?
Tam, I don’t really understand where you’re going with this because Jesus went all the way to the cross and died. He didn’t stop at some point and say “Right -that’s it - you’ve spit at me/beaten me/abused me one time too often - I’m not going through with it!”
He didn’t withhold his life so why would I withhold anything if I am aiming at being like him?
You seem to be depicting someone who gets upset with people and eventually gives up on them but evidently it’s not Jesus since he didn’t - he went through with the cross, all the way to the end.
@Tam
I have to ask….
Why would an omnipotent, omniscient God care one iota about anything we thought or said?
I have a salt water aquarium in my house. in it are several species of fish, some of which are on the aggressive side.
I take care of these fish, they owe their continued existence to me. Would I be insulted if I could read their thoughts and find out that they don’t actually believe in the human? So what? I have them because I find them fascinating and enjoy taking care of there habitat.
When I stick my hand in to that tank to some of them even have the temerity to come up to my hand and nip at it. Should I take offense at this transgression and flush the offending creature? They don’t do any damage to me. In fact, the argument could be made that it is I who am the transgressor by invading their world. They are responding to the physicality of the world of which they are a part. I can’t fault them for that.
Now follow my line of thinking here…
If God were truly perfect, why create us?
There must be some need He is satisfying.
A need implies an imperfection… something missing. Please don’t take me wrong, I’m not trying to be insulting here.
Could it be something as simple as: loneliness.
The idea breaks my heart really.
If that’s the case I see nothing wrong with the idea of all of creation being the journey work of a God that wanted companionship.
It follows then that I don’t think He cares about what we think of him so much as He cares about how we treat each other and our stewardship of the planet on which we live.
Maybe this a childish and unsophisticated view, but there is much that is wise in the wonder of child contemplating the deepest of all questions.
Tam, I hardly detest God, if He exists then I am in awe of Him and the laws of nature that He is responsible for!
R
Helen, if you realize all of this, why do you continue to run from Him?
Helen…First, the person with the deed showed no anger at all.
Yes, thank you, I know Jesus didn’t say enough that’s it, I’m done with you. I don’t see where in my example of the property owner giving up. He waited til the other persons last moment. It’s a picture of Grace if you ask me. It was the others decision in the end, not the owners.
Robert you said this…as you know:
Me either
Then it looks like you and I are ont he same page…:)>-
God’s Gal, I’m not running from anyone.
Tam wrote:
That doesn’t make sense to me: no-one chooses to be eternally tortured. If they didn’t know that’s what they were choosing then they weren’t given enough information and it’s the owner’s fault for not fully disclosing the situation.
@Tam
BUT!!!!
Where we part ways is God punishing, FOR ETERNITY, those who deny Him.
R
If you truly believe what you wrote earlier…
then I don’t understand how you can say you are now an athiest…
But what if I have not told these people in person I am preparing the house. I wrote a letter many generations ago, that has been passed down for hundreds of years. The people that have passed down the letter can’t agree on the meaning of the letter. In fact, some of them have retranslated the letter and there are several different versions of the letter.
People can not even agree on the address of the property, let alone the best roads to take to get to the house. Many people claim to know me and the address to the house, but they differ greatly. Some say it is in Iowa and you need to take a train, while others are convicned it is in Toledo and a boat is the only way to get there. It doesn’t help that many of the “letter keepers” of the past have lied about the contents and used them for evil means.
Over all these years I have not sent any clarifcation about the purpose of the house, the address, or the best way to get there. I would not be surprised if nobody showed up.
God’s Gal, I’m simply saying that’s what the story says. I understand the story.
Whether it’s true or not…I don’t know.
Helen, are you being serious here? Do you really not get this simple analogy? I don’t think it was that hard or complicated. In my example the owner DID Give him all the details he would need to make his choice.
You read the bible. You know what the bible discloses. YOU CHOSE to walk away, regardless. I CHOOSE not to.
At what point do we take responsibility for our won choices:o
HappyNat: It’s amazing to me still how the non-believers find so much fault in what the believer sees clearly to be truth. God sends clarification and everything needed to understand over and over again, but the blinders remain on. Like Tam says, at what point do we stop blaming Him for our poor choice of unbelief and begin holding ourselves accountable?
No one I might add who has been on this site for any length of time will be able to stand before the throne of God and say “I didn’t know, You didn’t tell me”.
God’s Gal, if you can’t choose not to believe in God then belief isn’t actually a choice, is it?
It is always a choice, good choice or poor choice…..
Helen, Dare I attempt another analogy but for the sake of what you said here:
Let me try this… If you were bathing and decided you’d like to try to blow dry your hair in the tub full of water which led you to be one fried up cutie…would it be the manufacturers fault? Even though there are clear instructions on how to use the devise and where not to use it. Although most people don’t read those instructions, they’re still there. Could you take responsibility for that?
Robert
There’s that Potato/Tomato thing again. I don’t see that at all. I see it implies a desire.
Also, I am reading a lot of this right now…
In everyones effort to prove an analogy wrong, they are forgetting the source by which GG, tam and I get our info. The Bible. More than enough info has been given, in extremely simple form I might add. Some have chosen to believe this info, some have chosen to do nothing with it or to disregard it completely.
@GG
Your point is taken…BUT
You have to admit that history is full of groups of people who have seen what they have WANTED to see.
As little as a 150 years ago people used to SEE justification and truth in slavery and the subordination of woman, right in from the SAME Bible that is no doubt on your night stand.
Clearly YOU do not SEE any such thing today. What’s changed? The Bible hasn’t.
WE HAVE CHANGED!!
And we will change more.
I foresee the day in the future when Christians will look back at the discrimination levied against homosexuals the same way we look back at those Christians who espoused the TRUTH of slavery.
We look at people who make apologies for slavery with contempt and rightly so!
Robert
God’s Gal - so you could choose to stop believing in God? I thought you said it would be impossible for you to stop believing (but maybe I misremembered that).
Tam, it was brave of you to dare to post another analogy :). I won’t nitpick; I’ll just say where we differ is on the clear instructions part. See HappyNat’s comment #72 - I’m with him about the lack of clarity.
@inWorship
Simple!?!?
Are you kidding me!?
Again…SLAVERY, SUBORDINATION OF WOMEN
Both were found to be JUSTIFIED in the Bible.
But not anymore!! WHY?!
R
Helen, you are twisting friend, my not choosing to stop believing in God is my choice. I stated the possibility to choose, that is always there, you say you experienced Him and did, what I said is after experiencing Him, there is no way I could ever choose differently.
inWorship, we remembered the source is the Bible and that’s why we say it’s unclear.
For example, if it’s clear then I will happily go with the clear message in Matthew 25:31-46 and be sure I can get to heaven based solely on my behavior - what I do or don’t believe is clearly irrelevant since Jesus didn’t mention belief.
Can I rely on the clear message in that passage about how to get to heaven, or not?
Robert, the overall message of our Savior is very simple. It doesn’t do anyone any good to bring up Old Testament rules and stories when we now live under the New Covenant. Read the New Testament, that’s where we are now. Could you please give me some scripture to back up the examples you gave earlier…maybe I could shed some light for ya….:)
God’s Gal, sorry, I was not deliberately twisting what you said. I thought you meant you had no other choice, not that you would never choose otherwise.
I agree it is amazing people can look at the same evidence and come up with different results. It also amazes me that believers have such a wide variety of what they think the evidence means.
I have never said I don’t hold myself accountable. In fact I tend to blame myself more than I should in many situations. I could never blame god as I do not believe he exists.
Belief is not a choice. When I left Christianity I wanted to believe, but I could not. I explored further to try and believe and it did not work. No matter how much I want I can not believe that I will talk to my mother again, or that the moon is made of cheese, or that there is a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. I just can’t. We can examine evidence, look at past experiences, and listen to our heart and mind to help us decide what we believe, but it is not something we (or at least I) can choose.
…and there’s that guy who Jesus says has to sell everything to have eternal life. That seems like a clear instruction.
@GG
So by that reasoning am I justified in completely ignoring the Old Testament?
All of it!?
Including the creation story? :d
Wow I am being a pain in the tookus here aren’t I?!
R
PS I have to drive home…i can’t wait to continue this!!!
R
If the bible is so simple, why can’t believers agree on what it means? If it is such a simple form why are there different demoninations, translations, sects, and cults?
I didn’t become an atheist until I read the bible. As I said this was not a choice, the contradictions/violence/inconsistencies of the bible were too much for me to accept it as a holy book.
This has always been an interesting rebuttal in my opinion. This response usually comes from the same people who say that we are not to live out every law in Leviticus, because it isn’t for us today. I do not perceive to understand or know in anyway why God would choose to lead and discipline His children “the Jews” this way.
I do know that we are talking right now about the opportunity of accepting the life Jesus asked us to live. The passage you bring up is a perfect example of how “simple” it is to follow him. this passage speaks to those who have attempted in many different ways to “win” approval or place. Jesus says there is no way to achieve “approval” or “Place” apart from him. John 5:24,John 6:35,John 7:38,John 11:25…it sounds like all we have to do is believe. there is no “doing”, just surrendering.
Sorry Helen, that last paragraph was directed to your comment #84
Robert: If you pick and choose out of the Bible the way you do my answers no wonder you’re confused!!!:-w LOL
No, there is a very good reason why the Old Testament is there, but you can’t keep referring to it like that’s how we’re suppose to live now…Once Christ died He freed us from all of that, but it’s in there and has a purpose…you still haven’t given me any examples tho of which stories your talking about in comment #82…..
Helen: also if you back up a couple of verses you’ll see that He is addressing those who have chosen Him during the Tribulation, and are still here at His second coming.
Happynat says
Dang…that quote thing freaked out again. the last paragraph is me…
And sorry for the typo’s….that was HORRIBLE! If anyone needs a translation I’d be happy to oblige :d
HappyN: There are so many times when I will be in a service and hear a lesson and get something totally different, but essential to me, than my neighbor next to me. It’s how God works. He relates to everyone where they are at, and one scripture and mean different things to 20 different people. For instance..
You say:
Helen says: (Fellow atheist)
These two statements contradict eachother, yet if I don’t focus on that but where each is coming from I understand. You even contradict your self….
Is that not a choice?
God’s Gal, I think I’m agreeing with HappyNat - I don’t think belief is a choice and nor does he. I understand that you do think belief is a choice.
Helen, you spent at least three comments trying to show me it was a choice….I’m not getting this…..:o
Helen, when you walked away from God - you chose to. When you became an atheist, that was your choice. Isn’t that a choice? Am I taking crazy pills? 8-}
@IW
It seems simple and clear to you, but the fact of the matter is it has been and will be translated many different ways. Some people say you get to heaven doing this others disagree and say you have to do that instead. I’m not talking about the bible being right, just that looking at history the message from the bible has been anything but simple.
@gg
I would say this is how people work.
They relate what they read to where they currently are in life.
To read the bible was a choice. My psychological and emotional reactions as I read the bible were not a choice. As I read the bible I kept coming across stumbling blocks that I didn’t want to come across. I didn’t want to have a problem with the religion I had practiced for 20+ years. As I kept reading my mind wouldn’t let me get past them and my belief eroded.
If someone tells me that I will get 200 acres of property in Colorado, if I write a letter to the president of Mexico everyday for a year, I would not believe them. It sounds great, I would love a large area of land in Colorado, but as much as I want it I can’t choose to believe I will get it. I may even write a letter a day for a year, trying to make myself believe I will get the land, but in my heart I know I just annoying the president of Mexico.
To be fair, I never choose to be a Christian. I was baptized young and raised in the church and took everything they said as the truth. There would be times where I said, “that makes sense”, but I never made a choice to be a Christian, I just was one.
That’s my point…people have said. The bible says “one way…Jesus”. that’s simple.
Happynat
Happy Nat
Boy the quote thing just ain’t working right today…sorry. Last paragraphs are my response.
The only difference between you and me HN is that I kept searching for the answers to the hard questions. I didn’t give up because something didn’t jive…I understand where you are…I’ve been there.
I understand what you’re saying here…but there is nothing and I mean nothing anyone can do to earn their way into heaven. It’s already been done, it’s a free gift for the taking, and that to me IS simple.:)
IW, the boxes seem to be working fine…
:-\”
Mine didn’t work either til Tam taught me how….LOL
GG - ya, I must be doing something wrong. They are working sometimes and not others for me. Oh well. I just keep writing “sorry notes” and moving up the “comment” chain. Of course none of us can catch up to you. You are a talker
I’ll take that as a compliment???;;)
I’m definately passionate about my Jesus!
Aww Geee!
You take one little (long!) sleep and suddnenly there’s 87 new posts to trawl through 8-|
Forgive me if i missed something important by not giving everyone the time and effort to absorb they deserve.
GG - ty glad to be here - thank Tam for the invite!
HappyNat - i may have interpreted what you wrote as being what you believe was THE point of life (for all) not just for yourself - Sorry. But that does not actually change the apparent contradiction.
I forget who addressed it best but death giving meaning to life by forcing us to recognise we only have a short time to ‘get it right’ - I like the idea - but it is still poor logic
If the idea and ‘point’ to life is to live a good one (or TRY to as you go) then clearly the longer you live the more of ‘the point’ there can be - true? And death merely ends your good work.
Perhaps you meant the FEAR of Death gives your life actual meaning? - Inspires you to work better and harder?
Question? Wouldn’t a belief in God and Jesus do much the same thing with the added benefit of giving you Hope for the future no matter what occurs in your life in the future. Plus the feeling like it is not ‘just you’ (against the world?)
I don’t want to convert you or try as i actually have a somewhat similar philosophy to your own it seems along the ‘I get to figure out my own life and beliefs’ line and detest the idea of someone imposing their beliefs upon me forcibly (or by ‘threat/fear’).
I merely ask to offer an alternate view of the choice you seem to have made in your life to totally reject God because of….. whatever your own reason is?
Robert - Love your work!
Helen? - was it you who asked if you could call me love? If so - Yes! with a small l though please
and whoever it was who had the similar website name (curse this old memory of mine) 
I am certain that we have a deal in common! 
God’s Gal sorry if I was confusing - God’s Gal and Tam: no, I don’t personally believe that belief is a choice. I wouldn’t say I chose to stop believing.
LWBUT - I didn’t ask if I could call you ‘love’ but I was the one with the similarly titled website.
OK i got sidetracked and missed GG’s point a little.
I should say up front that I am not big on the idea of permanent torture in hell for a large portion of Humanity - at least not as some christians portray it to me after reading scripture.
I’m not going to say that i have it completely right and i may burn in hell for my heresy but i offer another ‘version’.
Don’t think less of me all who believe, please?
We are already IN hell! Take a look at the world mass media - what do you see there? Every day we spend here is torture to who we TRULY are.
Hey - whatever else it is Life was never meant to be EASY! (famous saying over here!)
Now before i get the howls of outrage or complaint let me point out that some of us on this planet quite like the place! It doesn’t appear to us like hell in the slightest (OK maybe, if we look outside ourselves, we might acknowledge this is not a universally held ‘belief’ by our fellow humans).
To complete where i was going above - to our human consciousness (which is less than infinite) each of us is capable of forming a differing view of this ‘hell on Earth’ to the point where we even feel like we like it - a lot in fact.
But what i think the followers of God ‘get’ that some of us don’t is that our consciousness is NOT ‘all’ there is - or even ALL ‘we’ as humans Are!
Buried deep within us - so deep (in hell?)
there exists … something! Something that is capable of being contacted by our consciousness but not ‘always’ and not as clearly as we commonly ‘could’. This may be described as ‘Our Soul’. To Me this is what connects us to God! - They have a similar ‘construction’ - they may even be ‘One’ (one ‘aspect’ perhaps?)
If we choose to we can improve the ‘connection’ between these two differing versions of ‘us’ - wipe out the more sensory, egoistic, self-centred (there’s a Word!) ‘conscience’ and make room for more of the ‘heavenly’ Soul in our day to day earthbound lives.
Some say Jesus ‘perfected’ this.
InWorship? was it you who said Christians didn’t demand perfection?
I know i have read in the NT that we are supposed to be perfected ‘in Christ’ - or at least the people i think Paul was writing to were!
Taking things like that out of context can be used by some to justify what they as humans believe rather than what God and Jesus believed - correct?
Stands back and waits for the deluge of nitpickings.
LWBUT: Sorry, from here out you’re Love to me….I think you deserve an acronym with more than “but” on the end;)
I realize there is alot of symbolism in the Bible…but I feel God makes it pretty clear it will not be playing poker with friends, as I have heard so many times here…
On my walk with the Lord, when I have deliberately turned from Him, I have literally been in Hell. I love His presence, and when that is not part of me, to me it is Hell. When I think of this world without Him, His spirit, His daily guidance with His Holy Hand….I can’t even comprehend what these people will have to endure…yet, they have a choice. I had a choice, I knew nothing except who I was without Him…It wasn’t working. After being beat, and tormented for 7 years or so, I fell to my knees and said “God, if you’re real, show me, if you can do a better job with my life, do it.” No one was with me, but Him. It was between me and God. He proved Himself real and faithful to me, even when I was faithless…I no longer have a need to reason things out, I just trust…it’s freeing and real to me.
Helen: Sorry, we won’t agree on this. You were a believer, you chose that life, you made a conscious descision to not believe anymore, that was a choice.
Love: Most of us are getting ready to sleep, thanks for being here….write away!
:):)
Helen, if walking away for the Lord wasn’t a “choice” then what was it?
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