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…it seems like you’re just trying to convert people to your religion. Like they’re notches on some sort of spiritual belt. But they’re not. They’re people, they’re people that God loves. They’re people that Jesus wants us to love. They aren’t statistics, they aren’t numbers, they aren’t possible conversions. I mean, if I’m loving somebody with an agenda, then it really isn’t love, is it?
Before I continue, I’m well aware of the arguments I may be starting right now. Although I completely agree with the above quote, many Christians will disagree with it. They will tell me that unless I’m preaching hell/brimstone to a person then I’m not really loving them. They’d say that I’m allowing them to remain inflicted with a terminal disease and not offering them the cure. They’d say that it’s not true love if I’m allowing a person to remain “sick” and eventually die. They would be angry with me. “You have the antidote and you’re keeping it all to yourself.”
I disagree. I believe that it’s not my job to convert people. Anybody that spends 10 minutes talking to me or reading my posts will know where I stand/what I believe. I truly believe that this site would be failing if all I did was tell people that they’re going to hell - turn or burn! Get saved or microwave! Dumb.
I’m all about loving people, serving them, helping them and forming relationships with them. Typically, as a result of these actions, people will see the Jesus in me. That is my form of evangelism. That is how I contribute to society. Christians, if you think that’s not good enough…if you think I’m not doing my job as a Christ follower, that’s fine. I’ll answer to God one day just as you will.
In the quote above, the last sentence reads:
…if I’m loving somebody with an agenda, then it really isn’t love, is it?
So let’s hear it. Is it possible to love somebody if you’re trying to convert them? Is it possible to love somebody if you have a hidden agenda?
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But do you think we atheists are going to hell, even if you don’t go around saying it to our faces? That’s what I want to know.
Cornered me. Nice.
I believe that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. I believe that anyone who doesn’t believe that…yeah, will go to hell.
I believe that there are many “Christians” who don’t know Jesus, so it’s far from just Atheists.
I don’t go around looking at people like, “yep, that one is gonna burn.”
There you have it. Let the arguments begin.
Thanks, Bill. Yeah, I had to ask!
hmmm, as for me, I can’t say that I do have a “hidden agenda”. I don’t leave my door each day with the mindset of “converting” anyone. They convert themselves. However, I do live each day with the mindset and hope that people may see Gods character in me. Grace and Mercy. And yes, love. If I have the opportunity to meet someone who doesn’t know the Lord I will freely speak of who I am. No agenda - just natural.
If my heart is to see someone come to know God, it IS because I already love them. Not like I love my husband or children - but love for people in general. A care/compassion type of love.
Well, it’s impossible for me to convert someone, so trying to would actually be a waste of time. I love humanity tho, and know where we’re headed so for me to remain silent about the one saving factor, namely God, to me would be wrong. People definately know where know where I stand whether they know me 12 minutes or 12 years…I’m not a closet Christian. I am a follower of Christ and my heart is the same as His, that none would perish.
I long ago gave up trying to change people. I can show Christians* that Atheists aren’t baby eating mass murderers and maybe they will take it upon themselves to reconsider what they have assumed about me.
Personally, if you were preaching and trying to convert your readership then I wouldn’t keep coming back. Even if you do think that I am going to end up extra crispy.
*Yes, I know that you’re not all like that.
HF-Thanks for the Clarification (*) It sucks being lumped into one group that has a bad name cuz of a couple bad apples.
Personally, I’ve never heard of Atheist being baby eating mass murderers…that’s terrible!
” I believe that anyone who doesn’t believe that…yeah, will go to hell.”
It’s OK that you think that, of course. That’s what xianity teaches…though, there are other interpretations that allow for universal salvation. But, really I have a hard time getting universalism from a “plain” reading of the Bible.
If your agenda is to help them, then yes that’s love. If your agenda is a notch on your belt or to serve god, I would say that that’s not love, not for the person anyway.
I think that if you believe people are going to hell that
(a)you should do your best to present them with an “out” IF they don’t already know about it. But most already do.
(b)You will rarely, if ever, change anyone’s mind.
Quite a predicament for someone who loves the hell-bound.
I’ll say this to anyone who tells you that you aren’t “loving” people: God, according to the bible, allows people the freedom to choose Hell. He doesn’t swoop in with visions of hellfire to turn sinners off their paths and onto his. Everyone here has already heard the gospel oh about 1,000 times. Those who will turn will turn with or without your efforts, those who won’t, will not no matter what you say.
So, Bill, DON’T LET THEM MAKE YOU FEEL GUILTY! No one’s destiny is in your hands.
Remember, it’s very possible that no one anywhere is going to Hell.
Tam, here’s an example of what at least one person thinks of atheists
Helen, that quote ticked me off. I don’t like it when people are placed into neatly packed…segregated groups. It’s extremely arrogant and narrow minded. People tend to speak without thinking. I’ve been discussing this on my blog today and that kind of stuff can get me going.
My request for all of us, Christians, Atheists, Buddhists and anyone else, is this. Do not hide your unwillingness to listen and love behind a classification of a group of people that is based, so often on incorrect generalizations…
Hey all! I love you all with no hidden agenda’s. I really hate the stero-types, Atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, Christians…I am what I am, and if you must then call me Christian but don’t lump me into a category of narrow minded people. I think all people all colors all races all religions or lack of religious people are beautiful and created in the image of my God! Of Course I would love for you to believe like me, but no single human being can change a heart or a mind.
Bill-I have a great deal of respect for you, man! I believe all the same things, and you know I hate religion, I hate politics in a church..:-? We are supposed to love, and not from agenda or a spiritual notch..but from the heart, open minds to hear others, and to help where ever and whenever we can. We all stand before God one day, and in my heart I believe you will hear “well done, my good and faithful servant.
hoverfrog-I am crazy about you and your honesty. You can make me laugh so hard, and then you can be incredibly serious. how do you do it?;)
Helen, I believe you are my sister, and yes i do love you without an agenda.
Helen - that’s something else! There are definitely very broad and general statements made on both sides in that link.
One being from the idiot who found the dying cat on the sidewalk in the first place (the kind who gives us all a bad wrap~X( “To the person who committed this horrendous inhumane act, I have a question for you. Are you an atheist?” Ignorance!!!
Then there’s this one “This has got to change, people. Churches teach people this stuff. Churches teach that atheists have no basis for their morality. Churches feed people this hatred. ”
To say that “Churches” are teaching this and feeds people this kind of hatred lumps the Fellowship I attend right along in there and this is simply not true.
So there are generalizations on both sides. I really like what Bill has going on here and what we all as participators have established…honesty, humility, respect and a safe place to communicate with each other and learn from one another.
We really can’t speak for anyone but ourselves. You, as an Atheist can speak for you and me as a Christian can speak for me. I can not label you, nor would I, as anything that I know you to be. And from what I know, I like you! I’d really enjoy meeting you someday!
Someone very dear to me is Atheist, and my nephew is a Krishna, and I love them.
Please don’t let some Christians send you the other way or keep you from talking. I refuse to let my bad experiences with other religions to keep me from building lasting friendships with anyone. No one is anymore of a sinner than me. Everyone should be loved, or even know what that is.
Tam-I totally love you, and you are radical, and awesome in every sense of the word! I am glad that you and I have paths that crossed..very sweet. What an awesome princess you are!
God’s Gal-you rock! I know that you also love like crazy. All princess all the time…even in rough times.
I would love to meet you all. It seems to me that not many Christians love each other and there lays the hugest problem. Not the ones on here, but in general-love is not easily found, and acceptance is even harder to find when there are differences. That’s what makes this site totally rockin.
I love Tam and God’s grl for who they are and what they stand for. They are honest and open. And I also love the rest on here for the same reason. I believe God is going to have the final say, and sort it all out anyway. And none of that is up to me.
As a Christian you can imagine the looks I get in the Christian circles where people are segregated for what ever reason…I am up front and in faces..”where is the love in that?” THey hear it and they don’t like it.
hahaha see I even offend my own!
:)):)):)):)):))
Ha-Ha! Check this out
=))
Tam wrote:
When I said “this has got to change” I mean that churches who teach people that atheists have no morality have to change.
If your church doesn’t teach that, I couldn’t be happier! But I think there’s a good deal of denial in the larger Christian community of how they come across when they present the idea that people are broken and unfixable unless they join the church.
It’s like this topic right here. Atheists are all going to hell. Except if we can convince ourselves to believe something we’ve all tried to believe, but can’t.
It’s an ugly belief. One I could take for myself, but once I imagine my daughter growing up in a society where the majority thinks of her and treats her that way…. it’s unacceptable.
The doctrine of Hell is what I’d call the single biggest clue that religion is man-made. Who else but man would envision never-ending torture? I recognize those fingerprints.
When it all comes down to it, it’s just another barrier between people. Hell was made up by believers to scare nonbelievers into joining the church. Hell is religion’s way of discarding people who believe differently, and enforcing the fear of different ideas and different beliefs. It’s religion’s way of keeping the sheep from straying too far into unorthodox beliefs or questioning the status quo.
Hell poisons the well of civil discourse about religion. By design, I expect. It’s a tactical nuke that can be thrown into any discussion to upset the playing field and unbalance any discourse between equals. When it works as it’s meant to, it puts all non-extremists on the defensive, and punts the argument all the way back to Pascal’s Dishonest Wager.
A believer once asked me “why get upset about the doctrine of hell, if you don’t even believe you’re going there?”
I answered: “Do you know what Hell is? Hell is cutting off your gay son from all communication with the family. Hell is driving a wedge in the middle of the family because someone has different beliefs. Hell is a child beaten by his mother because he didn’t believe. That’s what Hell is. Hell happens before you die… Hell happens the moment your loved one turns away from you because you aren’t a good enough Christian.”
And yes, these are actual people I know that I’m talking about here. They’ve been to this Hell… it’s a self-fullfilling prophecy.
Hell is an excuse to treat people badly…. after all, you’re only doing it for their own good. Humans can’t avoid the sheer corrupting power of the doctrine of Hell.
Sorry, I’ve been really focussing on my daughter lately, and I’ve been transferring the ugliness I see in society to wondering what she’ll have to grow up with. I dread the moment (and it’s coming soon) when someone informs her that she’s going to burn forever in hell.
I wish I had something more positive to say at this moment… and I know you guys are the good guys. But I just can’t get past the fact that it’s 2007 already and we’re talking like it’s the medieval times. We’ve wasted thousands of years of human history arguing over a childish nightmare…. it’s time to move on.
(SORRY BILL!!!! But you knew this one was gonna hurt!!!
)
Tam- love the ROFL lil dude! hahaha
Siamang-I love you anyway. Since I do believe in a heaven and a hell, I just want you and everyone to be in the best place..that is the good human in me..good for everyone! Love me anyway too!
Any lurkers that want to like openly jump in, we will be happy to hear what you have to say. I just know that you are out there because of the way this post started…it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that out…:-h come on don’t be scared…none of us bite..its cyberspace…biting is not something we have figured out yet. ~:>
hover-loved the meme..I am still laughing about “talk like a pirate day” I am so in! Did you all know about that holiday and let me out?
Love you all!! Rock on, and even if you don’t want to hear it..Jesus loves you!
I believe Hell is a literal place. I believe Heaven is a literal place. I believe lots of crap happens here on earth. Horrific things like you mentioned above from the hands of people who clearly have hatred and ignorance in their hearts. I’m sorry if any of those descriptives were referring to things that happened to you or people you know. Actually, I’m sorry no matter what. I ache that you fear for your daughter so much!
I would offer some comforting words - but I fear they would just sound trite to you. But do know that I care…a lot…
sorry - comment #17 is to siamang
:)>- need to get off here for the night..a few things and sleep..love sleep too! Hope all of us get another chance to wake up and start again. Hell is a real place to me, but that is not my focus in life…love and being more like the One who loves me is really what I am about..and hopefully someone will see it in me, and my life won’t be wasted on nothing-ness..I just have to have more than existing in a happy bubble. Hope you all understand that. that is just me–do you accept me?
Paul said, “I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow.” (1 Cor. 3:6, NIV) We don’t have to take everyone we meet to the final destination. We just need to help them along on the journey. I read a testimony today that beautifully expresses that very point:
The link didn’t show up so I’ll try again:
Sorry, it still didn’t.
No worries, Siamang. Speak your mind, bro!
Ya know after reading through, something stood out to me. One difference I am seeing, for me anyway, I not only take into consideration what our athiest friends are saying, I believe they are true for them at this point and time. I say that because when us Christ followers say something, I am finding the response to be “if that is so” like we’re trying to trip you up or have been brainwashed into saying certain things to win people to the huge Monopoly board game in the sky. Case in point, Saimang I am NOT picking on you, but when you responded to Tam’s comment #12, you said “if” your church is that way, then went on to speak of denial in the larger Christian….uh, whoa! We are representing the larger Christian Church. Us on this blog. That would be like me saying only you, hov, and Friendly Atheist himself are the only decent athiests on the planet and I refuse to believe that it could be the majority….that’s the exact reason why there isn’t a quick change in thinking…regardless of how many we meet that are good and decent we are still looking for that majority that we have in our mind as being borderline criminal. Darla and Tam, you guys bless my socks off! I love you guys. I truly enjoy your wisdom! One last thought, if something like 911 ever happens again, and I’m standing next to anyone here, I wouldn’t hesitate to save you…isn’t it amazing how calamity can pull so many together when just sincere words of friendship can’t?
I take myself too seriously and then notice that I’m taking myself too seriously so poke fun at myself.
Anyway, back to the point: “Is it possible to love someone if you have a hidden agenda?” A hidden agenda implies deceit as you would be keeping something from me. I don’t think that love per se has any room for deceit.
AMEN :d
I’m all about loving people, serving them, helping them and forming relationships with them. Typically, as a result of these actions, people will see the Jesus in me.
You could be the most loving person in the world. I won’t see Jesus in you. I’ll just see you as a great guy.
I believe that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. I believe that anyone who doesn’t believe that…yeah, will go to hell.
Why would you think well of a being like that ? If I told you I would think well of someone who kicked the crap out of you for no action of yours, just an idea in your head, how would you look at me ?
This reminded me of something.
The Church I grew up in was in a really bad neighborhood. Homeless people would come in all the time asking for food, a place to sleep, and help. The Church always gave it. They even helped some of these people find jobs, and hired one to work in the kithchen (and gave him room and board). Nothing was EVER said to any of these people about “are you Christian, if not, you have to be to get help, etc”. They were told that if they wanted to come they were of course welcome at Mass, but I never saw them get pressured.
You know what started to happen? Some of these people began to wonder about the religion of those who had been so kind to them. They started coming to Mass out of curiosity. Many kept coming. The ones that started doing better-came back-they became members of our Church. They seemed to genuinely want to.
To me, that is what Christianity should be. People want to join it b/c of what they see in YOU-they want to emulate you and be like you in the same way you emulate Christ. I have wished many times that all of Christianity was like this. I might have stayed if it was. Too many religious (no, not the people on this website, you guys are awesome ;)) are so concerned with the whole “get em saved” part-what’s wrong with just living your faith by helping others and being a good person? Some people don’t think this approach works-but I can tell you from personal experience it does. Do you think any of those people would have joined my former Church if they had been pressured into it? Maybe so, but for all the wrong reasons.
Don’t underestimate living your faith by helping and serving others and being a good person-it really does bring out the best in people.
@Ben…
I’m really excited to respond to your comment. When I first read it, I’ll be honest, the first thought that came into my head was, “Crap…how the heck am I gonna answer this?”
I find myself often wishing I had a simple answer for all my non-Christian friends. I wish I could say the one thing that would clear things up. With that said…
I have the same questions as you, Ben. There is no sin [allowed] in Heaven. Ok. The only way to be clean of sin is through the one clean sacrifice - Jesus. Ok. I’m fine with all that.
The troubling part for me is the two extremes. Either you accept Jesus or you burn eternally. I’m kinda stuck on that one right now and it doesn’t settle very well with me. To me it just seems like there should be a lesser “punishment,” especially considering the fact that Christianity isn’t the easiest thing to buy off on for an intellectually honest person.
The reason I do believe in hell is because I don’t feel like I can pick and choose which part of the Christian faith I believe in. I don’t look at it like a buffet table. I’ll be honest, there are many things in the bible that I 1, don’t understand and 2, wish weren’t in there. Hell is one that I wish wasn’t in there.
I don’t have all the answers. In fact, I don’t have most. This is just a log of my journey (questions included).
I may have gone in circles. Nonetheless, that’s my response.
Ben I think what you said reiterated what we’re trying to get through here. It’s not about us and far as being better people than a non-believer it isn’t so. The only difference between the believer and non-believer is Christ, the fact that because we belong to Him and believe in what He did, we don’t have to suffer the consequences of our mistakes. Does that give us the right to do whatever we want knowing that we’re forgiven, absolutely not, just the opposite. To me it puts us on a higher point of accountablility. But what I’m trying to say is we’re all human…we all make mistakes. The fact that I turn to my God and He cleanses me by my faith and His grace is the only difference, but it’s the biggest one there could be.
Wow Maria, great wisdom and insight! That’s exactly what I try to do with people, I try to preach the gospel of Christ then if neccessary use words.
But someones salvation is a very one on one experience and should never be effected by what a “church” or particular group is doing. To say that you won’t be a Christian because someone else is a poor example of one to me is a cop-out. It’s individual from your spouse, children, parents, the whole bit. Just you and Him……
I have to say sometimes I feel that everytime I meet a new person or come in contact with a friend of mine that I know that doesn’t know Jesus Christ personally or feels like he/she can’t face Him b/c of the things they’ve done or even more they feel wronged by God, I feel pressed by God to go out there and speak truth about God. But I remember that sometiems these friends may already know that I am a personal friend of the BIG ONE UPSTAIRS and when God puts it on their hearts and they are in deep trouble, they know who to come to. I shouldn’t have to go ramming the Word of God down their throats, it may scare them off. I just continue to live the way that God has planned for me and show the love of Jesus to them. And maybe one day they will come.:)
Kim, AMEN SISTA!!!:d
Hey Siamang, my 8 year old son just came home yesterday very upset and told me that his friend told him that I was going to Hell where they (I’m quoting here), “They shoot you in the face with guns forever after you die”.
I actually go out of my way to not talk about my beliefs and let them know that they have their own choices to make about religion and for the most part is a non-topic in our house. However my 10 year old asked me point-blank “Do you think God is real?” I couldn’t lie to him.
Long story short (and I could go on an on) I helped my son understand that his friend may be mistaken and that it would be best if he kept my lack of belief to himself because there are people who don’t understand.
And you know your kid “gets it” when he says, “But they don’t even know you”. I hope your daughter will get it as well WHEN it happens to her.
“Keep your stick on the ice, I’m pullin’ for ya” — Red Green
Yikes, Skeptigator. That’s horrible.
Can I just move my family out of America before that happens to my daughter?
This country has gone down a bad road.
If that happened to me, I’d have a good mind to march into that family’s church and have a little talk with their pastor.
And the wierd thing is… are there even any Christians here who can SEE that the doctrine of Hell causes people to hate?
I mean, the reason believers squirm when discussing Hell with nonbelievers, in my view, is that there’s a voice inside him telling him that the very concept is deeply, deeply immoral. That’s their conscience talking, and then the rationalizations come, and we talk about the mystery, and God’s ways aren’t our ways, and whatever, and their conscience is placated and silenced again.
Anyway, Good luck Skeptigator. What I’m afraid is that I’m going to have to teach my daughter anti-Christian views to protect her. My wife was raised in a family that taught that Christianity was stupid and only gullible people fell for it.
It’s hard to take the high road when protecting your children.
Call me Miss Gullible :d Siam, I don’t squirm when talking about Hell, when I look around and asee that people have taken God out of everything and deny His esistence, then complain that things are bad, it bothers me. If people would put Him back in everything, including their lives, I think they would see a tramendous change and worship Him instead of blame Him.
@Bill:
You didn’t answer my question, though. I repeat:
If I told you I would think well of someone who kicked the crap out of you for no action of yours, just an idea in your head, how would you look at me ?
Is that statement in any way shape or form suppose to reflect our God?
If I told you I would think well of someone who kicked the crap out of you for no action of yours, just an idea in your head, how would you look at me ?
It is exactly analogous to:
I believe that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. I believe that anyone who doesn’t believe that…yeah, will go to hell.
and thinking well of Jesus / God.
I don’t agree Ben, has God kicked the crap out of you? If He did you’d be dead. That’s not the God we serve anyway, you have til your last breath to make up your mind…..to me that is a very merciful God.
and THEN he’ll kick the crap out of you.
Gods Gal:
Similarly, the person in the hypothetical has not yet kicked the crap out of Bill. The phrase was ‘would kick the crap out of’ not ‘did kick the crap out of.’ In both cases it hasn’t happened yet. The analogy holds.
Gods Gal:
A moot point. Feel free to substitute any analogous time frame in my question and answer it.
I did answer it, and it is not a mute point. It really matter what I would do because again, that is a misconception of the character of God. Your trying to realate a holy, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal God on a scale of man’s emotion…doesn’t work.
Gods Gal:
I can’t find it. What did you say ? How would you look at me if I told you I would think well of someone who kicked the crap out of you for no action of yours, just an idea in your head ?
@Ben…
To answer your question more directly: I doubt I’d be a big fan of yours.
And what if I told you, “Hey Ben…I’m pretty sure some dude is gonna beat the crap out of you. It’s your call, but you might wanna do something about it.”
You’re gonna make your own choice, right? Either you believe it or you don’t. I warned you the best I could…as I believed was true with all my heart.
Do I want you to get the crap beaten out of you, of course not.
I don’t mind admitting that the whole Hell concept is unsettling to me. I don’t mind admitting that I have very few answers. As I’ve said from the beginning, I’m just writing down the steps of my journey and inviting the world to participate.
As long as you insist on using it as an analogy for God it’s not worth answering. That’s my answer…it’s a rediculous and innacurate analogy not worth answering. i guess that would be two anwers to one question…..YAY!!!!
@ Bill:
Thank you ! An honest answer. Similarly…
True. And in order to differentiate true threats from false threats, what I do or don’t believe is the result of my best intellectual effort. “Especially considering the fact that Christianity isn’t the easiest thing to buy off on for an intellectually honest person.” If a God sets up a state of affairs where my best intellectual effort will result in my eternal torture there isn’t much I can do. I could guess at what I’m supposed to believe and hope to get lucky, I suppose, but I couldn’t bring myself to think well of such a dishonest exam-creator.
There is no fully developed teaching about hell in the New Testament that I know off, though there are frequent mentions of it. There is plenty of mythology about Hell that may have been adopted into official church doctrine. The Norse has Hel as Goddess of the frozen underworld that housed those unworthy of Valhalla. The Greeks had Hades as the underworld that housed the spirits of the dead and later added Tartarus as a place below Hades to punish the wicked. In Jewish mythology the wicked dead went to Gehenna which I am sure the Roman Catholics adopted entirely as Purgatory.
I think the concept of Hell as a place for the wicked has been added on to early church teachings. It certainly doesn’t form part of any of Jesus’ stories that I can think of.
Islam has no consistent teaching on hell. It is regarded as permanent in some passages of the Koran and temporary in others. In Hinduism, hell is accepted, but it has no permanent significance. It is but a stage in the long career of the soul. For most Buddhist schools, as well, hell is a transitory phase where sins are purged. I particularly like Buddhism in this regard. Buddhist teachings often talk about the removal or purging of undesirable parts of the spirit as well as the body and mind. A person’s mistakes and weaknesses can be repaired. The modern Christian Hell is something that is eternal. It is like saying to a person, you have 70 odd years to get it right and if you don’t then you’ll have forever to regret it. At least in Hinduism and other Eastern religions you have reincarnation to set right your mistakes.
See, I do read my cereal boxes.
One of the things Christianity as a religion fails on, in my opinion, is the absolute of Hell. One chance, fail and suffer forever. This isn’t the message of a benign deity. It is the message of a bully and a tyrant. Note how I stated that it is the religion that fails here. I do not believe that the New Testament text actually threatens eternal punishment anywhere*. I can think of a few references where it threatens judgement but nothing springs to mind regarding Hell itself.
Not so with the Old Testament which is packed full of fire and brimstone, judgement and punishment, where transgressors of the smallest instruction are made to suffer terribly for their disobedience. I’m think of Lot’s wife specifically.
What I’m trying to say in my usual long winded way is that I believe that Hell is an invention of the church adopted from earlier religions to provide familiarity to the converts and to frighten them into remaining under church rule. It must have been a particularly effective invention for it to still be working so well.
*Please correct me if I am mistaken.
Was my really long comment eaten by the ether? I can’t type it again. Not without finger bleeding being involved.
Thanks for the effort Hov :d/
Sorry Ben we’ll just have to agree to disagree….I think you would be suprised at the the number of intellectually honest Christians I know…Again, it’s not about you, it’s about Him and what He did for you…I would take Godly wisdom over booksmart anyday…..I know…..I’m in for it, but it’s just how I feel..;)
The quote about being “intellectually honest” was from Bill’s own words in comment #29.
Right, I realize that, his whole quote was “Christianity isn’t the easiest thing to buy off on for an intellectually honest person.” I agree, and I would still want Godly wisdom over book smart anyday
Bill wrote: And what if I told you, “Hey Ben…I’m pretty sure some dude is gonna beat the crap out of you. It’s your call, but you might wanna do something about it.”
Bill, I recommend Kissing Hank’s Ass if you’ve never seen it.
Two guys show up at someone’s door and say “If you don’t kiss Hank’s ass he’s going to beat the s**t out of you”
Yeah, it’s a parody of something…
Kissing Hank’s Ass in text form (For those who prefer reading text to watching videos)
Wow, how sad the views you have about such a loving God. I could actually stomach about 30 seconds of that garbage…again, it’s so far from the truth of who God really is….I feel sorry for you both and really have nothing more to say…
I agree GG…B and I just watched 3 minutes of it. 3 minutes we’ll never get back…not worth a comment…sorry, just being honest:)>-
If you sincerely believe that people will go to hell if they are not a Christian, then your top priority in life should be to warn them. Nothing should matter more than converting people. I don’t see how you can get around that, unless you somehow don’t care if human beings will be tortured for eternity or something.
Granted, most secular adults will realise that there’s something suss about a loving God threatening them with hell if they don’t become his memebot (see Kissing up to Hank txt above). Most of them would object that such a God would be evil, and undeserving of worship anyway. However, that’s not your problem, as you obviously do believe it’s worth the trade, so you must spread the word.
@Gods Gal, Tam:
I would strongly suggest reading the text version of Kissing up to Hank if you don’t like the vid. I mean, you can ignore it if you want, but considering how strongly it speaks to me and other atheists, don’t you think you should find out why?