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I’m journeying through [tag]Hemant Mehta[/tag]’s [tag]I Sold My Soul on eBay[/tag]. I am going to take one or two points from each chapter that stand out to me and make comments.
Chapter 1, page 13 (emphasis mine):
[tag]New Testament[/tag] scholar (and atheist) [tag]Gerd Ludemann[/tag] delivered a speech at [tag]Middle Tennessee State University[/tag] a few years ago. He lectured on the “hoax of the Resurrection.” The vast majority of the student population strongly opposed his appearance on campus. Yet the students who ran the school newspaper defended the decision to invite Ludemann to speak. The newspaper’s editorial contended, “The reason we’re [in college] is to immerse ourselves in original, new ideas and subject ourselves to diverse arguments. Every student should attend at least one lecture that differs from his or her current beliefs; if those beliefs can’t stand under scrutiny, they aren’t worth believing.”
I loved typing that just as much as I loved reading it.
For years I’ve gone to church. For years I’ve sung the songs. For years I’ve lived under a rock with a big Christian fish on it.
Recently the rock was lifted. The heat has been turned up and reality is setting in.
Through this site (amongst other resources) my faith is challenged on a daily basis. If a Christian stumbled across this site, if it weren’t for the big “[tag]Friendly Christian[/tag]” banner, I doubt they’d figure it was run by a Christian! Maybe [tag]God [/tag]has me hosting this site just to open up my eyes. I don’t know.
I’ve noticed that I don’t get many [tag]Christian [/tag]commenters lately. If it weren’t for God’s Gal, Darla, myself, and a few others, FriendlyChristian.com would pretty much be dominated by Atheists. I wonder how many Christians want to comment…but don’t. I wonder if they feel intimated. It’s real easy to feel that way. I have to fight it daily! The truth is, though, this site challenges a Christian’s faith like crazy! If a Christian is looking to get their faith stroked and gently held, this prob isn’t the place for them to visit.
I, however, can’t stay in my bubble anymore. I refuse to. What good is it for me to surround myself with nothing but people who agree with me and tell me what a good Christian I am?
After all, if my [tag]faith [/tag]can’t stand under scrutiny, is it really worth believing?
Popularity: 11% [?]
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I was really looking for someone to stroke my faith today….and then I stumble across this post….what the heck man! lol
On the serious side….
I love the excerpt above. Its so true. It would be like you writing this blog and being affraid to talk to an athiest that comments.
Great post! =)
“After all, if my faith can’t stand under scrutiny, is it really worth believing?”
It’s a good question, although one that I sometimes see people get up in arms over this very question (or at least I’m pretty sure people at my church would if I asked it). I recommended them reading Hemant’s book but they balked as soon as they heard the title. :(8-|
Bill, I admire your courage. You are absolutely right: our faith can stand under scrutiny. Jesus was willing to take on the religious leaders and Paul went head-to-head with philosophers and magicians. Maybe we’re afraid, as Christians, because we haven’t really done our homework. We don’t know much about philosophy or history. Or much about our Bibles, for that matter. Keep up the fight. I appreciate your honesty and boldness.
*singing* Oh Beautiful for spacious skies for amber waves of grain…
Fantastic attitude! You are BRAVE! I didn’t even know there was an atheosphere on the net, before.
Even if I did, I certainly wouldn’t have wanted anything to do with it when I was a believer. LOL!
But, from reading and getting hints about biblical scholarship here and there, I gradually became curious about all that I didn’t know and sought to break out of the bubble. What I learned wouldn’t necessarily change everyone’s mind, but it did mine.
One of my concerns, on behalf of your site, was that too much of a nonbeliever presence would drive away believers. It’ll probably balance out over time, though I expect.
ahhhh Not just our faith, but the faith of thousands has stood up for how long? We aren’t suppose to sit in a chair a couple times a week, we are suppose tob e reaching out to a world…..great post!!! I don’t fear people, my heart just hurts for the ones who don’t understand….
@Polly…
One of my concerns too. Either way I’m just gonna keep on truckin’
:d
@athenebelle…
I’m a subscriber to the “find the good in everything” theory. I guess some people are a bit more conservative with their beliefs.
Rob Bell says:
I’m rarely gonna back down from a good challenge of my faith. Also, I’ll rarely avoid material that contradicts what I believe. If I have a faith in God, I want it to be rock solid, having stood the tests of time and man.
That’s just me, though.
AMEN!!!
I think the question is whether you want to live and make your choices based on faith or reason.
I chose reason in the end. I am working on an article about this, so I’ve been thinking about it a lot lately.
Faith is the evidence of things not seen, according to the Bible, so if you are a Christian because of faith, you have a built-in sheild, because you can ignore evidence that doesn’t support what you already believe.
I personally decided that faith is not a virtue, so I stopped trying to stifle my doubt after 20 years. I stopped crying “Lord, I believe, help thou my unbelief!” and I embraced my unbelief instead.
Not everyone would follow the same path that I went down, and that’s fine. But I think everyone needs to face their doubts honestly and bravely one way or another.
I haven’t said this before Bill so I’ll do it now. Most blogs that I frequent that have a religious focus are run by, shall we say, the more fanatical element.
Any attempt to challenge preconceived ideas is swiftly attacked and any perceived threat is met with either a stony silence or regurgitated dogma. I have tried to discuss various aspects of religion (mainly Christianity) with people who simply refuse to state their case (if you can believe such a thing). It is my belief that they do not wish to deal with the uncomfortable arguments that my Atheist ideas might bring forth. Yet I want to understand how someone can believe in a god and to be denied honest discussion frustrates me.
This has not been the case here. You are free with your views and respond well to almost every question put to you. Your arguments are well thought out as well as positive as typically further the debate rather than try to slam in down. Similarly contributors here like Gods Gal and others have shown themselves to be honest and open minded. There has been no attempt to “convert” me to ridicule my views.
I find this very refreshing and hope that it will continue for a very long time and that we can continue to challenge each others view points.
Thank you.
Have I mentioned it’s amazing to see where you’ve come from in a year?
My hat is off to you for trying to keep yourself out of the typical echo chamber that most people seem to place themselves in — which is very easy to do with the Internet and the awful cable “news” channels.
As for your question, my own answer through the years has been “no.” If the hypothesis can’t be shown to be true, and nobody can create reproducable results or other hard evidence for their statements, then I’m just not going to bother with it.
Anyhow, I enjoy the site and am glad to see someone on the proverbial “other side of the fence” actually welcoming discussion of matters instead of yet more of the bile-spitting that seems to happen in these debates.
and as for me, i have been enjoying the volleying between a few of you. godsgal happens to be one of my personal best friends. i check in and think, yep, that’s what i would’ve said. i have really appreciated the honesty on both sides here and generally the overtone has been very respectful!
as far as your question…unfortunately alot of christians are not prepared for a good banter or challenge…and it’s sad. so this is really forcing alot of us to get off our “blessed assurance” and get to work!
thanks for all you do bill!
empowering words!
Bill - I want to say thank you for a site like this. I tend to stay in the background and soak it all in, but wanted to comment here.
I see myself at heart a fighter and often in the past have argued a point only to realize…I was an idiot. I passionately support what I believe in, but it has often lead to mis-communication and close mindedness.
I am learning. And, being a lurker here has taught me a ton.
Thanks!
Lurker, huh? Haha, I like that.
I think we’re all learning as we go. It’s awesome to be part of this with all you guys!!
This site is not just me. It’s all of us.
You know how during periods of economical “irrational exhuberance” there’s kind of a bubble effect, and then the bubble bursts, and we have economic downturns?
I think there is a bubble currently within Christianity. There’s a gulf between what many churches teach as “rock-solid proven facts about the supernatural” and what evidence they can actually show about those supposed “rock-solid proven facts.”
I think we are in for a correction, as so many believers I’ve met online are discussing what I’d call their “liberalization”… getting away from hard dogma and grandiose claims and getting closer to the idea of a personal experience of God, and a here-and-now living of Christ’s message.
Will the bubble burst, or merely deflate? Where will that leave us? Will those still in the bubble further radicalize?
I’ve often lamented what I call the anti-science position of some Christian leaders. I really think that bodes very poorly for the future growth of the faith… Kids who grow up learning from their pastors that Dinosaurs and humans co-existed in the very recent past will grow up to believe that pastors are either ignorant or dishonest teachers. “If Pastor Rick was wrong about dinosaurs, what else was he wrong about?” is a question that should worry Christians a hell of a lot more than “was my ancestor an ape?”.
I’ve called the Creation Museum a world-class atheist factory, which should chill Christians to the bone. It’s also, somewhat paradoxically, a religious radicalizer. I think we’ll see more atheists in the next generation, but a growth in Christian radicalism as well.
I think the problem is that Christianity is a system with no internal checks and balances. So the check must happen from without. Atheism is a check on overreaching belief. When a religion overreaches politically, becomes too radical, too polarizing or too far out with their promises, unbelief, skepticism and healthy doubt keep it in check.
Anyway, I feel a correction coming. Hold on to your butts.
Saimang: Rock solid proven facts about the supernatural????? Uh, isn’t that what makes it supernatural that there is no rock solid anything? Are you speaking of the faith of a Christian? I have had many personal experiences with God that have been so supernatural that there is no explaining them in human terms….and I fully agree that while I learn alot and can apply alot from past Christians….Christ’s message is living in the here-and-now, He’s never changing..am I missing what you’re trying to convay here?@-)
I agree with your theory as far as with Christian leaders, as there are no men who can or should ever claim perfection, which is such a big thing with non-believers….we’re all hypocrites!!! That’s why we are all suppose to work out our own salvation and also why you could never get to there from here on someone elses shirt tail. It’s always a one-on-one salvation trip. When we all stand before Him someday (I know, but it’s what i believe, settle down) there will be no “but I didn’t know” excuse floating around…..
“I thinkthe problem is that Christianity is a system with no internal chesks and balances.” Uh, huh? Not in my experience, if anything we are constantly overchecking internal everything….could you please explain your last paragraph? I also think it’s interesting that you wrote about bubbles today as that is what my blog was about as well….hmmmmmm maybe there is a God? I looked for a butt holding smiley but couldn’t find one, I think I’m gonna need it tho….<):)
Siamang, a rise in Christian radicalism and political power is actually quite a scary thought.
Crap………they’re on to me….
:-ss
lol
awwwww we don’t bite hoverfrog…..really….:-\”
Gods Gal wrote:
“Rock solid proven facts about the supernatural????? Uh, isn’t that what makes it supernatural that there is no rock solid anything? Are you speaking of the faith of a Christian?”
Good question. Yet churches teach stuff like they are rock-solid proven facts. As in, it’s a rock-solid proven fact that Mary was a virgin. Or it’s a rock-solid proven fact that the entire universe is 6000 years old. Heck, just a few years ago people in Northern Ireland were willing to blow each other up over whether or not the Pope was infallable!
On “checks and balances”, you wrote:
“Not in my experience, if anything we are constantly overchecking internal everything….could you please explain your last paragraph?”
What I mean is, Fred Phelps can claim to be a Christian. He can have a church that teaches some of the most vile stuff I can imagine… yet there’s no CHECK within Christianity to boot him out. He will ALWAYS be head of his own church, and doing damage (IMO) to the name of Jesus Christ. There is no check within his church or within the greater community of American Christians or within society at large that can make him stop claiming to represent Christ or God.
The Catholic Church, on a larger scale can have a child-molestation scandal, and there is no check against it. This is unchecked power.
So in the large scale and the small scale, both is true, there is no Checks and Balances for wrongness of message in case one, or abuse of power in case two. These churches will continue to do whatever they want, in the name of Jesus Christ or whover they want to say they represent.
If I buy a franchise of a 7/11 convenience store, and I use that franchise as a platform to preach hate, and I do things like not allow minorities to shop there, I WILL lose my franchise. The parent company will kick me out and say “sorry about Siamang, he doesn’t represent 7/11 Stores”. But if I open a CHURCH and do the same thing, nobody can stop me…. and I’m pretty sure I can find some way to twist the Bible to back me up, and nobody can stop me from claiming I speak for God and Christ…. all I need is a permanant supply of sheep.
me either..no biting!
Ya know what Siamang, I totally agree with you here…don’t fall over please;)
Let me explain my position on the checks and balances….there will now nor ever be any excuse for the behaviors of some churches. I don’t know how else to say it other than that. There are definatley and I mean i feel STRONGLY about this people and facilities that really screw things up royally for the ones who are right on with their faith and teaching. That is one aspect of being a Christian that is so hard for me..I will go to a church or turn on the TV and get physically sick about whats going on. The Catholic church…whoeheartedly (?) agree. Now, that being said, there are also atheists that are claiming to be athtiests that do horrible things with an attitude there is no accountability so I will do whatever I want attitude, which has been most of my experience until this blog. The point I am trying to make here is that obviously is a misrepresentation of all athiests….the churches you described here is also a misrepresentation, and a deception of what I believe to be the true church. For me, which is truly the only one I can speak for, if I even begin to feel like I have hurt someone, or misled, I will do everything I can to make it right. In my humaness, in anyones humaness we will make mistakes. Period. Saved or not, we’re gonna screw up. What I am trying to get through here, is to stop looking at the whole, stop labeling the whole barrel because of some rotten apples in it, and they are on both sides…..and look at yourself (myself) and your my) beliefs based on true searching and not someone elses opinion, or circustance, or conclusion. That’s all. When I did that, beyond my best friends, beyond media, beyond family AND spouse….one on one…was when I found Him. I can’t explain it any better than that and that is why I believe in Him. I will meet believers who say they are believers, yet after 5 minutes, the hair is up on my neck…..I will meet people who say they aren’t sure, but you can feel the Spirit of God oozing out of them…again, can’t explain it. I will never base my decisions spiritually on what I see around me happening, just like my feelings…it’s inaccurate and deceptive. AND I have to say, I really appreciate you, and your blog entries.
Good for you! Keep unflinchingly asking the tough questions and pursuing the truth, wherever it leads you. It’ll be the most amazing journey of your life.
As a freethinker and an atheist, I obviously find it difficult to deal with the beliefs of many religious people (and some atheists, for that matter).
The type of people I do respect, however, are those who honestly question their beliefs - atheist or otherwise. As Hemant and you both suggest - “if those beliefs can’t stand under scrutiny, they aren’t worth believing”. It’s certainly not limited to Christian beliefs, though (some atheists can be just as irrational)!
I’m glad to see at least one Christian out there taking the time to seriously question their own beliefs. While I think there’s some parts of religion which couldn’t possibly stand up to any honest scrutiny (e.g. literal interpretations of the entire bible), there’s still plenty we can’t possibly know.
Keep up the good work,
Richard.
“I’ve noticed that I don’t get many Christian commenters lately. If it weren’t for God’s Gal, Darla, myself, and a few others, FriendlyChristian.com would pretty much be dominated by Atheists.”
Sorry…we are legion. :d
On a more serious note: In my experience, anywhere religious beliefs are actually discussed and debated, atheists are over-represented. Most Christians do not wish to discuss or challenge their beliefs. When they do, they tend to deconvert fairly frequently, because Christian beliefs do not stand up to scrutiny:
http://foru.ms/t2382608-the-ministry-of-christianforums.html
(poll question in the General Apologetics section of ChristianForums.com. Note the 23:3 deconvert to convert ratio.)
Or a more widely researched project:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/conversion_asymmetry.html
This has certainly been enlightening so far. Who would have thought that Christians and Atheists could agree that we have preconceived notions that prejudice our view points and that we should always question our beliefs. :- %-( :-
Shame about the biting though.
Hi Bill,
I think it is good for you to expose yourself to other viewpoints. I found I felt a lot more honest when I started doing that. Whether you keep believing or not, you will gain more understanding as to the reasons and motivations of those with differing beliefs, and hopefully help them gain some insight into yours.
I think you have a lot of guts to explore this and I applaud you for doing so. writerdd said in an earlier post: “Not everyone would follow the same path that I went down, and that’s fine. But I think everyone needs to face their doubts honestly and bravely one way or another.” And I agree with that. I also second Richard R’s comment of “I’m glad to see at least one Christian out there taking the time to seriously question their own beliefs. While I think there’s some parts of religion which couldn’t possibly stand up to any honest scrutiny, there’s still plenty we can’t possibly know. Keep up the good work”.
Sorry to steal your quotes guys, but I couldn’t have said it better myself
Are they really “preconcieved notions” tho when that is all you have ever experienced as far as the behavior seen in certain people? I think it is good to see a different side of behavior from a group of people, it helps to let your guard down a bit and have great discussion….but I’m not questioning my beliefs as far as God goes…..just needed to point that out. In that I have no doubt. I’m very glad to see that there are “friendly athiests”, it’s great!\:d
Here are some of my observations based on watching atheists and non-atheists
in dialog online for the last six and a half years.
I think it’s emotionally hard for Christians to discuss God/Jesus with atheists for the same reason it would be hard for someone to participate in a discussion in which their best friend or spouse is being trashed.
I think this is one reason Christians are often reluctant to participate in discussions with atheists about God. It’s as if the atheists have bullet-proof vests on but the Christians don’t. And then I think it’s unfair when atheists take advantage of this - as some, but not all, do - to goad Christians and say they aren’t willing to discuss their beliefs. I think those same atheists would probably not volunteer to have their loved ones trashed in a public internet space.
I think everyone has things they prefer not to do or see because it only makes them feel bad/discouraged/depressed.
If atheists want to encourage Christians to discuss Christian beliefs with them then I would say, it’s up to them to help it be an experience Christians want to engage in.
(In the same way that, if Christians want atheists to share their beliefs, it’s up to them to help that be something atheists would want to do)
Helen, ya, it’s very hard and very perceptive. God to the believer is THE loved one, so it really does feel like a close member of your family being beat when there are remarks being made about Him. But we are also strong enough in our faith to be compassionate with people with different beliefs and still have ours unwaivered….I appreciate your blog Helen…thanks. I really learnt alot…:-j
@Gods Gal
HAHAHA :))
Poor hover…always gettin picked on
Gods Gal, I think that they are preconceived notions when you or I take our experiences with discussions (OK blazing rows) elsewhere and bring them with us when we enter into a fresh discussion. I’m not seeing any of that here which is great.
I’m also not feeling picked on at all.
@hover…
I was just referring to Gods Gals usage of learnt
@Helen,
That is very insightful. I’ve been trying to put my finger on what the disparity seems to be in the typical conversations, and I think you hit the nail on the head. Believers and atheists are worlds apart in terms of frame of reference. For a believer it’s just as you said, but for an atheist, discussing god and his attributes is like talking about politics or sports. We might talk about god’s actions in the Bible like a referee making lousy calls in a game - and heaping insults on him for it. But, the Christians are saying, “HEY! That referee is my dad!”
Hover: Yup, I agree. Honestly, for years I have always felt like I had to defend my position and my God, to me He warrants defending. But I love this blog site because most of the atheist believers I have met are able to discuss openly what they believe without making me feel defensive..hopefully I do the same….Bill I don’t think Hover offends easily….HA! Learnt is a cool word….but, blazing rows?????
Wow Polly and Helen…..just having you guys understanding what we feel is awesome to me. Thank you for that!!:)
Polly - exactly.
I think one of the problems with Christians fiercely defending God like they’d defend a spouse or best friend, is that other people wonder why some Christians are not so passionate about defending, loving and thinking the best of them. If these particular Christians are so relational, why does it seem to be only towards God and not towards the rest of humanity?
I’m not referring to Christians here, who have been friendly and have been brave, I would say, to hang out in a place where people are not reticent to share their opinions about God as described in the Bible. Gods Gal I’m impressed you’ve been able to handle some of the things said on here without getting angry. I would be high-fiving you for that if I could reach
Great discussions.
Helen said above:
“I think this is one reason Christians are often reluctant to participate in discussions with atheists about God. It’s as if the atheists have bullet-proof vests on but the Christians don’t. And then I think it’s unfair when atheists take advantage of this - as some, but not all, do - to goad Christians and say they aren’t willing to discuss their beliefs. I think those same atheists would probably not volunteer to have their loved ones trashed in a public internet space.”
While in some cases this may be true, but Christians are reluctant to allow discussion even with other Christians who don’t hold their particular beliefs. I have discussed my faith regularly and openly with atheists.
Christians often have such a weak belief system the real fear they have is someone convincing them their faith is foolish. Worse yet, many fear God will reject them if they do anything that displeases him.
Pretty regularly Christians delete my comments from their blogs. The most common reason given is the name of my blog “Whore Church” is too ofensive. Though I got it from Revelation they can’t offend anyone or anything lest their God reject them.
I have thick skin.
Is “blazing row” not in common usage in America?
Kevin, uh, I’m trying not form an opinion about you one way or the other here by your post…. You classified Christians about being reluctant to discuss their beliefs with other Christians, and have a weak belief system?????:-w Not where I come from. We are careful not to offend people, because regardless of their belief or where they are in their walk, they are still a creation of God and no one has the right to judge or catagorize them. I know I don’t like being lumped into that catagory that you’ve described….I certainly don’t belong to a whorechurch..the name seems to draw more attention to you than God….
HEY HOVER!! I haven’t heard of blazing row….although blazing saddles was very popular for awhile….:d
i am glad you have this up. and i wholeheartedly agree. challenge yourself. ask why. and the truth will stand the scrutiny. it did in my life.