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Imagine if believers and unbelievers alike wanted to surround themselves with Christians. After all…
- Christians are loving
- Christians are joyous
- Christians are peaceful
- Christians are patient
- Christians are kind
- Christians are good
- Christians are faithful
- Christians are gentle
- Christians show self-control
I know this post seems so simple…perhaps even a bit elementary. But seriously, this is it, Christians. THIS is what we’re supposed to be known for.
Let’s get out of the weeds and come back to the basics: love God and love each other. Let the list above be the fruit of our faith.
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Nothing in this list has anything to do with being a Christian. Churches have statements of faith - what you have to believe - not statements of behavior. Neither the Nicene creed nor the Apostle’s creed has anything to do with behavior. Look at your the Seacoast church’s website, for example. It has a ‘what we believe’ not a ‘how we behave’ link.
There is no reason to expect Christians or non-Christians to behave in any particular way.
1 Corinthians 13:4
I don’t think that is an accurate statement. Well, I guess I can’t speak for non-believers but I think there is an expectation for Christians which is plainly seen in scripture. It is something that we should continuously strive for in order to be a true ambassador for Jesus Christ, which we [Christians] are called to be.
The point Bill was making comes directly from scripture. It is an example of the characteristics of LOVE. It is a perfect model for us to in our approach to everything we do. The Bible tells us to ‘love our neighbor as ourselves.’ If these are the true characteristics of love, then it is a very safe argument that we, as Christians, are called to behave exactly like this!
It’s better than my old list. My old list says almost the exact opposite of yours. Especially the kindness thing. Kindness is a rare trait indeed and I don’t think it matters a hoot what religion a person claims.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21, Deuteronomy 13, Luke 14:26
It also tells you to stone your disobedient children to death, to kill non-Christians, and to hate your family and yourself. If you want me to have expectations of Christian behavior based on what the Bible says, I still have no solid expectations, because just about any behavior can be justified.
Amen Bill. It’s that simple.
The creeds may state what we believe (or perhaps should believe or pretend to believe) but to follow Christ would imply that we follow his commands. Behavior is expected. Do we always succeed? No. Should we realize where we fall short? Certainly.
Ben, those things you object to - they aren’t really “Christian” and I’m not sure that God dictated that behavior (8-| gasp!) but that the writers of the Bible decided to place God’s stamp of approval on it. Sort of like when we claim that God stands behind America and all that. Or thank God that he gave us the bomb first (which is paraphrasing Harry Truman). There are some propositional truths to scripture and one of them would seem to be at odds with genocide.
Ben:
You are correct. Depending on how you read the Bible, you can probably justify almost anything you want to. In fact, people do this all the time. It’s one of my biggest irritations about many of the sermons preached in churches today. People approach the Bible with an idea…Like, Christian Finance…Then they go to the concordance and look up every time the Bible mentions money, treasure, or wealth and try to preach a sermon on it. This is not a correct way to read the Bible.
Many verses have been taken out of context because people fail to read the Bible with careful hermeneutics. They instead pick and choose scriptures to justify what they want. And they fail to find out exactly what was truly being said.
Here’s another example if you’d like – Probably the most humorous Bible verse I have ever read:
Deut. 25:11-12
The point I’m trying to make is this…When reading the Bible it is essential that we understand what is being said, and what it means. Not simply what it means to you, or how it makes you feel, but instead what message was the author trying to convey to the people of that time, and how can that message apply today?
Using your example from Luke, since it seems to be the most contradictory to the passage on love, here is my understanding of the verse:
Jesus is speaking to those who have shown interest in being his disciples. He says to them (v26):
“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple”
The context of this ‘hate’ is not a loathing towards humanity, including yourself, in and of itself. Instead Jesus is trying to stress the point that unless your love for God is greater than all other things [hatred by comparison] then you are not his disciple. It is the contrast between love for God and love for this world. The things of this world will pass away, but God will remain, and if we are to call Him, Lord…We must first have an understanding of what it means.
You can’t gather this understanding by simply reading verse (26) but if you read the entire passage it brings everything into an appropriate perspective of what is being said.
I’m sorry that this may come across as a little “preachy”…But please know it is my passion for the subject and not my arrogance.
You’re right Bill! This IS how Christians should act. And what’s even crazier is that we DO act like this. Are we perfect? Not even close. But we actually do try. Just that it’s never brought up.
There is nothing in the context of Luke 14 that suggests this to me. It reads to me as typical of what a cult leader says, separating followers from their families and friends.
What context in Luke is suggesting that the hate is actually love, just lesser love? Explain.
Ben:
I’m happy you asked. I [personally] think the other parts of this section of scripture point us to what Jesus was getting at in verse (26). However, if that is not good enough for you, don’t panic…because when all else fails, remember that scripture can be tested by scripture. And we have other accounts of the same story.
Mat. 10:37
Matthew 10 is not an improvement.
34 Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 “For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36 and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.
Don’t trust your family; they are your enemies and I am the one you should love above all others. It’s the same kind of thing Scientology does, Jim Jones did, and all cults do.
Jason, here’s an example of me explaining the context of how I read something from another board:
http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=25914751
Could you use that as an example and explain what you are seeing in Luke that gives you the context such that hate is actually love, just lesser love?
Ben:
Re: comment #1, try James chapters 1 & 2
Re: comment #4, try Romans - the gist is grace trumps commandment
Ben:
I’m not sure how the (2) issues relate? It appears the topic from the URL you referenced is dealing w/ the “Ten Commandments”. Can you help me understand the correlation between the two?
There is no correlation. It was an example of me explaining how context gave terms meaning when we had different people interpreting something differently. I explained what parts of the text (in this case, a previous post) led me to interpret the text the way I did. In that case, I had the opportunity to ask the author if my interpretation matched his intent (it did.)
You said “The context of this ‘hate’ is not a loathing towards humanity, including yourself, in and of itself. Instead Jesus is trying to stress the point that unless your love for God is greater than all other things [hatred by comparison] then you are not his disciple. It is the contrast between love for God and love for this world.” I want you to explain it to me what context gives you this meaning. My post was just me providing an example, explaining how I got meaning from context that other readers didn’t. In that case, I was the only person responding who correctly picked up on the author’s intent via context.
Ben:
I think I understand your point. I’ll take some time to ponder your question, and will answer you when I have a bit more time.
For now, maybe this video will help support the idea I was attempting to represent.