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In yesterday’s post Ed asked
A question for my [tag]Christian [/tag]friends. To what degree do you believe everything your [tag]pastor [/tag]tells in their sermons?
[tag]Religious leaders[/tag] are just humans like the rest of us. They have the same weakness, and are subject to the same temptations, as everyone else. If you are a member of a religion you must have some degree of faith in it’s leaders, but that doesn’t mean unquestioning [tag]faith[/tag].
If your pastor starts riding around in a new [tag]BMW [/tag]I would check the church accounts pretty quick.
Thanks for the great comment, Ed!
- So how about it? To what degree should we (Christians) believe what our pastors tell us? Do we remain mindful of the fact that the too are humans just like us and are just as likely to mess up? Or do we assume that every word that comes out of their mouths and every action they accomplish as God-inspired?
- Can a pastor not drive a BMW? If not, where do you draw the line? What kind of a car is “too much?” How big of a house is “too much?”
Touchy subjects!
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No. Under no circumstances should we assume that a pastor is inspired and above accountability…that is a recipe for disaster. The responsible believer will always have their Bible available to double check what the pastor says, and a responsible pastor will encourage the believer to do so.
On the second point, I don’t believe any Christian should be driving a BMW or Mercedes. We should have “enough house” for our family, but not a McMansion.
mmmm…. McMansions with syrup
@Odgie…
Where do you draw the line? Why? Do you think it’s wrong to have nicer things?
I a former pastor of mine kind of put things in perspective when it comes to “the nicer things” of life. She had been a teacher and her husband is (last I heard) an orthodontist. They had a really nice sized home when she decided to go into ministry. They continued to live in that nice house (rather than the parsonage which our church maintained) until a trip overseas for one of her husbands dental conferences really made he think about her lifestyle. She and her husband decided that they would rather live in a smaller, more humble dwelling than continue to use their money on this large house. I think she saw it as living her faith.
Just a story for contemplation on this subject.
On a separate comment as the first one doesn’t really fit the topic question. Do I believe everything the pastor tells me? To a degree. By that I mean that I mean, how much do you believe a friend? By that I mean that if they’ve shown themselves to be trustworthy then yeah. If they show a sense of entitlement and arrogance there might be less of a trust and less of a belief in what they are saying. I saw this played out at a previous church I attended. It got to the point where the church (members) fired the pastor. He wasn’t a bad guy, they just felt that the things he was saying were against what they believed and removed him from his position.
@Bill
I believe the New Testament has Jesus saying something to the effect that one must sell ones possessions and give the proceeds to the poor to ‘follow him’.
Also: it’s impossible for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle; likewise for the rich and the gates of Heaven.
I’m not really baiting you just being my usual ‘pain in the a$$’ self.
R
Some of you may find this comic brilliant.
Some of you may find it blasphemous and smite me thusly.
Either way it’s still REALLY funny to me!
R
Bill, should we copy inWorships answer over to this thread then? I think he answered Ed quite when he asked this yesterday.
Robert said:
Beautiful. That hit the nail on the head about how scripture is often edited in the mind according to one’s own priorities.
Good stuff, Robert. I haven’t read Russel’s Teapot in quite a while.
Robert says,
Actually it doesn’t. That verbiage is used, but the context does not say that. The 2 most common passages talked about that use this statement are in Matthew 19 and Luke 12, 14 and 18. In all situations Jesus is talking about gathering treasures in heaven and not on earth. Jesus wants us to be free of any barrier that might keep our desires placed solely on Him and His kingdom. Th “rich young ruler” her is speaking to in Matthew was given a challenge. Make me(Jesus) the priority in your life. But the rich young ruler knew that he could not give up his earthly desires to follow Jesus.
I think it is silly to imply that owning a BMW makes you less of or not a Christian. that’s not the point. There is no where in the bible that says to be a follower of Christ, you must live in poverty. To the contrary, there are many instances we are given in scripture to challenge us to use wealth and prosperity for good. So if we have it, bless others with it.
Robert: You’re right, it is funny!!!! It’s so far off about how a Christian thinks, it’s hysterical. :p
Yes, I think InWorship’s answer needs to be copied…
Christians are not robots. We are all responsible for our walk, and our talk. I am blessed to be under the teaching of a pastoral staff that studies and knows their stuff….but regardless I still question, and seek out for myself…everyone should.
As far a material stuff…it’s the LOVE of money that is the problem. When people find their identity in material objects (temporal) it becomes a real problem…There are so many scriptures right now on how God wants to bless His people….with money comes responsibility.
I heard a story about a family who had little to nothing most of their married life. The husband and wife had bought the home that the husband grew up in. They scraped by for years, gave what they could and loved the Lord. They learned to be content in their circumstance. The hauled water for 6 years to their home because the well had gone bad, and it was just an old run down house. But they were happy and never lost their joy or love of people.
One day, WalMart decided to build a store, right next to them and made their land worth upward over a million dollars. They are in the process of selling right now, and I’m anxious to see how the Lord will use the money for His glory. That’s their heart. Would it be good stewardship to recieve the blessings that were bestowed on them and get a new car, home etc. and help where they are led? or is it better stewardship to continue living in poverty and give it all away?
@inWorship
Then why not say it in such a way so as there’s no confusion.
It’s so fortunate we have biblical scholars who all completely agree on the correct interpretations of these key passages. 8-|
I know two Christians, one a baptist the other a Jehovah’s Witness. They agree on less with each other than they do with me! Yet they each call themselves ‘Christian’.
Who has the higher claim to the true interpretation?
R
@GG
Did you ever find an answer to my ’subjugation of women’ issue?
I don’t recall hearing from you on that.
I’m curious as to how you interpret those passages I quoted.
R
They did. That’s why inWorship understands it so clearly.
Robert, Jesus always spoke to intent. He often used parable and story to let the first century Jews he was speaking to understand Him. He painted pictures so they could see clearer. Every situation Jesus spoke of “selling possessions”, he was speaking to the intent(which each of those passages read in whole clearly define) of what it takes to put Him first in their lives. We, as people, worship everyday. We worship ourselves, our possessions, our families, whatever. Jesus wanted us to worship Him first and foremost.
When reading scriptures and “listening” to people who say they are an authority of scripture, we must always take the Bible as a whole. we must step back and look at Jesus whole message, not little pars of it. It is only then that the actual picture is revealed.
I haven’t Robert, not because I’m avoiding, but there is so much to it. Like InWorship says, picking and choosing is never wise…I’ll post some things on my former post so that this one doesn’t get side-tracked K? I’ll go to my last one I did on this site Would God do that…..give me about an hour…
:d/
Before I start digging Robert, could you please clarify your second scripture reference? Thanks!:)
Robert says,
She won’t find it. The Bible speaks of “submission” not “subjugation”. Big difference. Subjugation is forced, submission is offered.
@inWorship
Well thanks for that clarification. I’m sure all the women in American would be happy to know that they are encouraged to ‘offer’ their submission to their husbands. My wife especially!
The quote that I was really interested in having properly interpreted for me is as follows:
1 Timothy 2 11-12
11 “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 “But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.”
Now maybe I am too ‘muttle’-minded to comprehend the ‘deep’ and ‘loving’ spirit that this piece of tolerant and egalitarian prose was meant in.
If it sounds as though I am being condescending and rude I apologize…
I was accused of being muttle-minded and mental at another blog, so my patience for sophistry a little thin right now!
R
I submit to God, and when that means submit to my husband I do. But that also means that my husband has to love me like Christ loves the church enough to die for her…well not that is where the rubber meets the road for me! Submission is not like is happening in Afganistan or Iran or where ever women are being treated less than human. That is not submission that is oppression.
Robert, or anyone…
Here is an interesting write up on that passage. I’d like to know your thoughts.
http://monopedilos.com/staticpages/index.php/women_in_the_church
Submission as described in the bible is not a bad thing. Submission as defined by the world has been ruined and abused. Unfortunately the worlds example of it is where most get their idea of submission then connect it to the bible. It’s all about going into the Word and studying it for yourself. I think it’s pretty clear.
Here’s a cool opportunity, based on what we are talking about…
http://daveferguson.typepad.com/daveferguson/2007/10/everyone-at-ccc.html
@inWorship
*sigh*
Nice dodge there.
That write up doesn’t do much to support Mrs. Clinton’s aspiration to the highest office in our country does it?
I am asking YOU (inWorship) what this means.
Don’t ask me to go and read something that just outlines other Biblical scholars views and seems to conclude exactly what I suspected.
This goes to another really important question:
As a saved Christian are you able and/or allowed to have an opinion on this passage or any other?
The language in the passage is pretty clear.
What do I tell my two daughters?
“Sorry girls, yours is not to question the church… submit yourself to your husband and he’ll answer your questions BUT by all means don’t let him beat you!”
I think i might have outlasted my welcome at this forum.
R
Robert: Please go back and read what I wrote on the other post we were on earlier…..;)
Teach them what the Bible says, not what YOU think it says. Can I speak for myself? Interesting, I didn’t know that what I’ve been doing for the last couple of months is just blowing smoke out of my ass.
I gave you and everyone else that link to see a well written piece on both sides of the discussion. The writer in that piece agrees with one side. I do not take the hard stance she does. I believe this passage speaks to a group of Christians in Ephesus in the first century that were living life we truly know nothing about besdies ideas and specualtion. She spoke to many of those ideas.
When it comes to women leading or teaching in the Bible(again…looking at the whole picture) there is evidence of this all over.
When it comes to submission in th Bible. It is very clear that the MAN holds all responsibility to being a person filled with integrity and love. What woman would not want a man as that caring for and leading them? Paul’s teachings in the Bible do not ever place a women in subjection or submission to a man just “because”. That’s ignorant to read it that way. A woman is submissive to a “Godly, loving, integrity filled man.” If a man is in submission to God(which is what the Bible asks us to be), then there is a perfect relationship with the Woman who was created to be a “life saver”(actual interpretation of the Hebrew) for man. the bible also says that she was created “Like-as” or in other words “as valuable but different”. these again are translations of the original Hebrew text.
These passage don’t speak to what a woman is or to how valuable or invaluable she may be. It speaks to a process in a specific church in the first century in Ephesus. You could go back an re-read my link again. I think she spoke to this very well.
Church leaders like Dave Ferguson (InWorship’s comment) and Steven Furtick (Bills’ post from yesterday) are examples of ministers/pastors raising money for good works. These are the kinds of stories that should be in the headlines.
Unfortunately the only church leaders I see getting the headlines are the ones misusing their positions for their own personal gain.
Thanks for providing the links.
Money and power are very corrupting influences, for any group of leader.
Another question I have is how much control, if any, do individual parishioners have over the money spent by their church?
How aggressive should a church be in soliciting funds from it’s members?
One of the tackiest things I heard about was in a travel documentary. The commentator stated there were now ATM machines at the “miracle” site in Lourdes, France, I have no idea how funds are solicited at this site but the presents of ATM machines does suggest these “miracles” aren’t free.
As far as you scriptural reference, I will give you MY opinion if you promise to stop giving references of others when I ask you a question…K?
There are a whole lot of interpretations of every passage, that is why it is so important to seek it out yourself…..we interpret to the best of our ability, but we are man. There is a definate order to things in God’s economy. I love how Tam explained submission….it doesn’t mean you lose your identiy as a person, or woman. Yes, there are times when I am to remain silent, while men are teaching….there are times when it is in my best interest to submit to my husband when I feel something is wrong in his thinking. But it does not mean I am weak or subject to him abusing me or treating me poorly. When people begin to get away from how God designed it in the first place, everything becomes acceptable and you find chaos, like we have today. Homosexuality is wrong. I love the people who may be in it, but it is wrong. (Save the cards and letters folks, I’m talking to Robert) One innie plus one outie equals a couple…..simple. But man has slowly stripped away the bounderies and now it’s a free for all.
God is the head of man, man is the head of woman…and so forth. When the order is right, things work great. When the understanding and non-warped interpretaions are applied….it works.
Did that help at all??:)
My minister generally gives sermons that ask questions or provoke thought around issues so it’s not really a question of whether I believe what he’s telling me or not.
As for the BMW, funny stuff! That may apply in some traditions but it’s laughable in mine. Unless the minister’s husband or wife has a damn good job.
Ed says,
I think this speaks volumes about our “media and news sources. There are the abusive in leadership…even a part from churches, but we don’t hear when they do good, do we?
It legally is up to each church and how they write up their constitutions. In other words, there will be a lot of opinions to this. Our church has an administrator that handles the everyday finances, but does not have “Pastoral” responsibility over how it is spent. The Pastors (11 of us) make unified decission as to large expenditures and individual Pastors make up budgets each year the we adhere to as to not spend frivolously.
Some churches have multiple people responsible, some have only one or two and some can’t do anything unless there is a majority vote by the membership. the interesting thing is that I personally have seen the most abuse of finances in churches by churches run by boards of leaders. They often are very “traditions” minded and have special interest.
Giving an offering is biblical and should be taught appropriately in the church. It should be encouraged, but never emphasized in a way that takes priority over the teaching of Jesus and who He is. It is part of it, not THE part. The church shouldn’t be afraid of having or talking about money, we should be more concerned over how we spend it.
Did you know that some churches are doing this now for the “ease” of giving. A lot of givers at churches even have you take it out of their bank account with auto withdrawal. To me, this misses the point. Paul teaches us in the Bible to be cheerful givers, to give as an act of worship. I am not sure how giving via technology is very worshipful or personal…just my take.
@Dawn…
That happens! I know one pastor whose wife is a doctor! I wonder if a pastor’s wife is allowed to drive a BMW w/o being criticized half to death…? Your thoughts?
Thanks for commenting!! :d
Dawn you bring up a good thought here. I don’t think people realize that the majority (I would say 90-95%) of Pastors make even to or even below what would be considered livable income. Churches differ on the salaries of Pastors as well. Paul in the Bible said that Pastors should be paid well…even with whatever trades are out there to compare to being a Pastor. that would be interesting if we lived specifically by that. I could get pay that may equal a counselor, teacher, or even a CEO
Of course Paul’s point was to care for a Pastors needs well, so that they don’t worry about how to eat or where to live, so they can focus on the work they have to do.
Ed: There is a difference also between Tithe and offering…..most people think it is the same venue, I believe it is not. Tithe, is the mindset that wow, God allows me to have 90% of His money, and you give 10% back. Offering would be like if your worship pastor had to have the latest Ipod, to effectively minister to people and you bought him one….that would be an offering…..something above the 10% that was also for the expansion of the kingdom.
Also, at most churches, the financial records are available to anyone if they should ask. And they know they can ask too.
It’s actually law Tam. There are certain aspects they don’t have to disclose, but tax reports are open record for Non-Profit.
@inWorship
You paint a very lovely picture. I wonder though, is that actually what the writer intended or just a modern apologetic response to an old meme?
For the past two-thousand years we have been interpreting the Bible. I think we can both agree that your conclusions are a hell of a lot more sophisticated than those scholars of the Middle Ages.
But is a cigar simply a cigar?
@GG
I’ve managed to come down from my bout of ‘righteous indignation’ over your comments.
I should convey to you that I seriously considered abandoning my whole enterprise of trying to find common ground with the theists I’ve met here.
In retrospect perhaps I should have anticipated your reaction to anything related to ‘wicca’. In my experience, most Christians have a deep mistrust of all things Wiccan and/or Pagan.
That said, before I was married to my wife I had a girlfriend who considered herself Wiccan so I learned much. I found most of the stuff kind of goofy and silly, I saw nothing that I would consider ominous or would raise my hackles. I did however remember the Wiccan Rede and included it in my own personal zeitgeist as it were.
It’s funny you should mention that because that’s where I apply the rede. My view is that when two consenting people, any two, come together in love, something is added to the Universe. All are increased none is decreased. Just my view, i don’t see it changing.
Robert
Bill you are welcome to fix my qoute code…
@inWorship
No I don’t! That illustrates my point perfectly.
If that’s the whole gist great!
What need have I of ‘talking snakes’, ‘child killing bears’, ‘world-wide floods’, ’suicidal pigs’ or ‘bottomless pits’?
If it’s as simple as ‘The Golden Rule’ all else becomes window dressing which is my point all along.
R
It’s been ours as well. When did we say it wasn’t. It’s all a part of the character of Jesus, so it’s valuable to learn. But it is not the path to Jesus.
The difference right now is…why you choose to live this way. Just to be a better person? Or to be a disciple of Christ?
Robert: I can’t apologize over my feelings of Wiccan….it’s alot more than just harmless antics….but I won’t get into that….what I’m saying is, if you continue to seek all avenues for answers, you’ll never find THE answer because there is so much contradiction.
There is nothing we could do if you made that decision….I hope you hang in there tho…
;);)
You won’t tho, understand things of God until you know God….It will always seem confusing, and at times pointless.
@inWorship
Yes but some Christians tell me I have to take the creation account of Genesis literally. They say that the Earth is 6000 years, old no more, anything else is not Christian and therefore blasphemy.
They tell me that story of Noah is NOT an allegory, it REALLY happened.
What does whether or not agree with an ancient creation account have to with the message of Christ?
Believe me I can get on board with living a Christ-like life. What I can’t do is turn off my logic and reason.
Why does the bible have to be an ‘all or nothing’ proposition?
R
@GG
You needn’t apologize for your feelings about Wicca anymore than I will apologize for my feeling that most of the Old Testament is barbaric, cruel, and most of all irrelevant to the message of Christ.
I will try, but I can’t promise to be as civil as I had been. But I’ll try!
R
Robert, you are trying to figure things out that people who have been walking with the Lord for years haven’t completely figured out. The only thing you should worry about, is whether or not you have a relationship with the One who can give you the answers to the things you seek. You don’t have to give up your logic and reason, but it won’t make sense until you know Him. Once you do, everything else falls into place….
Ok, then move past it. The Old Testament to me didn’t start becoming relavant or interesting to me until 8 or so years after I began walking with God. The message you should be focused on is the one in the New Testatment….that’s where we are today..don’t worry about the rest.
@ iw
A lesbian?
Or my wife? 
Happy:
A lesbian, or a wife who is not walking with the Lord…I would agree.
Happy….that came out wrong…what I meant was, any woman not walking with or believing in the Lord would feel that way.
Who says what you (the general not specific you) are following scritpture now? The rules have changed in more ways than I can count over the past 500 years. I doubt all the groups that did barbaric things in the name of god/scripture thought they were doing horrid things. They thought they were pleasing the lord. It is only in hindsight that we view their acts as terrible.
Scripture has been used to promote slavery, the keep women from voting, to start wars, and to persecute homosexuals. It is hard to imagine now, but those people thought the bible agreed with their views. They knew they were right. The interpretation of bible verses has changed as society has changed. Why should we think we have it figured out now?
Because Jesus said that nothing else can take the place of Him. if there is something taking the place of Him in our lives than we are not seeking Him.
You can use reason and logic all you want, but the Bible says that the way to God is not through man’s wisdom. The bible says that God’s Spirit will teach and train us(showing us right from wrong…allowing us to understand scripture). It is all or nothing, because it is a step of faith. we each decide to take it or not.
HappyNat - I will respectfully refrain from any jokes…
As much as I’ve enjoyed this, I have to be gone for the next few hours. I will look back tonight to see if any discussion has continued.
Robert says,
Thank you?
No problem, gg, I knew what you meant. And my wife is not walking with the lord . . . unless that is who she is seeing when shes runs to the coffee shop.
In reading many of the previous comments I can think of a few more question. I do love to ask question. You are getting a sample of why I drove my poor Sunday School teacher crazy.
I think your answers to my previous question have brought me a better picture of the Christian world then the one I had before I starting reading Christian blogs. This is the value of the FC site. Not agreement on issues but a better understanding of someone else’s point of view.
My perception is that there are three ways in which God’s message comes to Christian. 1)From God himself when you pray. 2)From the words written in the bible by the first apostles. 3)From your pastor in his Sunday sermons.
1)I would think that anyone who is a Christian would not question the message that get directly from God.
2)My perception is that where the different branches of the Christian faith begin to diverge is in how each interprets the passages in the Bible.
My question is what is your primary sources for understanding the words in the bible. The instructions you received in your Church? Reading the bible and making your own interpretation? Seeking divine guidance from God in prayer? Something else I haven’t thought of?
Very interesting topic. Personally, when dealing with individuals I subscribe to the “you will know them by their fruits” philosophy — if the person has a bunch of drama and anger in their life, I’d really hesitate to take their counsel. But some people just radiate the peace of Christ, you just see Jesus working through them. I am very interested in what people like that have to say.
As for the larger issues of knowing for certain what’s right and wrong, I actually just wrote a (way too long) post on how I came to terms with that if you’re interested. But I won’t take up space in your combox to ramble about it.
Love your site, Bill. Keep asking the tough questions.
We should trust our pastors but check everything with how it lines up with the bible. We should also check something we are not sure about by praying and trusting the holy spirit to show us the answer.
I think it is absolutely okay for pastors to have nice things. A person who is really committed will have someone else do the finances so he can’t give into temptation with that. If God blesses him enough to get a nice car without stealing from the church, then why not.
Ed says,
In my opinion, all 3 are necessary. And I think you are pretty accurate as to how we study.
We should find a good church that is accurately teaching the Word of God and be a part of learning and growing with that community. This is something personal to taste and comfort, but in my opinion needs to be more for depth and consistency.
Regarding the Bible, Christians have differing views on whether or not it is completely accurate or literal. No one can say for sure, but as an evangelical Christian, I would say that where we don’t disagree is that we believe it to be God breathed. In other words, Men and Women of God wrote the scriptures we have today. We trust it, but we are also willing to question it and seek to understand it. The Bible says that the primary sourceof understanding is God’s Word and the Bible is just that. As Christians, we do not always understand it and often have differing points of view, but it is still the source.( I’ll speak more to this in a moment).
Your 3rd option of learning directly from God is usually the most powerful and the most criticized. How can God speak to us? I believe He can and I believe that the Bible teaches this as well. There have been times in my life where I believe I have actually heard a voice (and no it didn’t sound like Charlton Heston). Here’s the thing though. I think the bible has given us a look into the character of God (whatever some may think that looks like) and in doing so, I am driven by that which only matches up to His Word. I have never heard anything that would contradict His teaching. Does this make sense?
As to different branches of Christianity interpreting scripture differently, this will always be. BUT there is a difference in interpretation of certain theologies. The Evangelical Christian community considers certain things “essential” and others “Non-Essential”. We even have a basic “creed” for this which says, “In essentials, Unity…In non-essentials, Liberty”. So there are some things that we would not adjust our thinking on, and they would have to deal specifically with our salvation in Jesus and who Jesus was and is. This is the “rub” so to speak for being considered Christian, agreement on Jesus. My main issue (and it is an issue that my church stands against) is that often times, Christians will hold to some theology that we consider non-essential and in doing so, they sever a relationship with an other Evangelical Church. This in my opinion is unbiblical and ungodly. Many religions put emphasis on “acts” of faith and not on a person. Christianity puts emphasis on the person (Jesus), and because of our commitment to Him, our actions follow. (As a side note, this is why Christians will often question a person’s Christianity, The scripture says so much about Jesus changing the person we are when we accept Him. It also says that “we” will be known by our fruit. I don’t agree with questioning, it is not my place, but maybe you can see why that would come up.)
I am sure there will be something I missed or more clarification needed. For everyone’s sake…especially Robert…THIS IS MY OPINION based on my personal experience in the Evangelical Community.
how many posts will i have to start with…i’m confused. again. this time re; the homosexual issue.
can’t find the thread, but i’m sure that someone claimed that OT rules pertained to the jews specifically, which is why, after Jesus, people were no longer expected to hold to rules governing food, haircuts, endorsing slavery, or killing any people who didn’t worship the same as you. is this right?
my problem now is that the only quote i can find that disapproves of homosexuality is in the OT. unless one uses selective interpretation, how then is homosexuality a sin, whilst eating lobster is not?
Hi Ash,
Read Romans 1 with special attention to verses 16-28 or so. It talks about homosexuality, idolatry etc.
cheers GG, i’ll get back to ya;)
OK….
I’ve held my tongue long enough!!!
I can’t stand it any more!!!
Even though i am born YANKEES fan….
GO RED SOX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah that’s right i said it!!!!
I hope the SOX stomp the ever living crap out of that poser team from mile high city!!!
I feel better now!
OK, everybody get this one written down in the books…
Robert and I are in complete agreement on this!!!
@Inworship. Thank you for your thoughtful response.
“Your 3rd option of learning directly from God is usually the most powerful and the most criticized.”
I agree the question of God speaking directly to someone may be the biggest question mark we atheist have concerning religious belief.
I think it is the hardest question to discuss with Christians because to question someone on this subject would seem imply they are either deluded or lying. I don’t think that is the case, but I can see where in discussing this with a Chrisitian they might take this as a personal affront.
I can’t know what another person hears or experiences. I wasn’t there. However, the personal observation of someone else isn’t by it’s self enough for me to believe in that experiences. History has shown that a belief held by thousands, even millions, of people can still be proven wrong.
On FC we gone round and round on this issue of belief in God. I think it is pretty simple. If God speaks to you directly in some form or manner you will believe in him. If he doesn’t you won’t believe he exist. These are irrconcilable positions.
It is helpful to gain insight on another persons point of view. I don’t see how an atheist and a Christian can debate it. Neither is going to change the other persons point of view.
Of course a healthy argument can be fun as long as it doesn’t become personal.:d
I do look forward to many more interesting exchanges of information with my Christian friends.
@inWorship
You may not like my reasons!
How presumptuous! I mean we ALL know that history shows that God is a New York Yankees fan!!!
R
So Robert, your one of those “vote against” something types? I’ve always been a “vote for” something
Yankees…God’s team? I guess I’ve heard that before. I’ve always seen him as having a soft spot for the Angels :d
@Robert:
I grew up in family of Yankee fans. I was the only one who rooted for the Brooklyn Dodgers. ~X(
I do not use the word “hate” lightly. However I can’t think of another organization on “God’s Green Earth” that I HATE more than the Yankees. :p
I still think Whitey Ford was a spit ball throwing cheater. :d
@InWorship:
I see it as another sign that God is not all powerful. He couldn’t get the Angels or Padres into the world series.:d
In College Football even Notre Dame is getting beatup. Not a good year in sports for the Lord.:)
Ed, he is a fair and just God…both those teams stunk
Some people are naturally gifted speakers, some not. Some are also naturally gifted manipulators and con-artists.
You have to be the final judge of what you believe. God didn’t give you a functioning mind so you could sit back and be spoon-fed someone else’s beliefs.
I was raised in a conservative Catholic home, and it was when I began to think for myself and to question what I was being told and when I began to compare what I was being told with the actions of those who were telling me what I ought to believe/think/do, that I realized how wrong the Catholic church and so many non-Catholic Christian churches are - as well as many non-Christian religious institutions.
Sermons can be helpful, I suppose, but what I’ve found is that everyone filters all this stuff through their own individual experiences and perceptions. Look how Jesus Christ’s words have been twisted and manipulated through the centuries - it’s just that much easier to twist and manipulate the words of a priest or minister (or rabbi or guru or what-have-you).
Never believe anything anyone tells you, especially if it comes with implied threats and/or implied slurs. Think for yourself. If you find a person’s words helpful, good, but that doesn’t make that person more worthy of listening to than a friend or sibling who’s given you helpful guidane or inspiration.
I’ve just seen too much raising of these people to cult-hero or god-like status, and that’s when it gets really freaky.
God gave you a mind. It’d be a huge insult to God to refuse to use it.
@InWorship
What you described is almost word for word what my denomination says is their essential.
In my denomination we specifically say “In essentials unity, in everything else diversity.” Also the main statement is “Testaments, not tests.”
And yet how you described the Evangelical churches (unless your church was or is historically UCC) doesn’t sound like I’ve always thought if them. I guess it depends on our essentials.:)
Unfortunately, the media has done a wonderful job of making Evangelical Christians look like money grubbing, adulterous, political activist freaks.
The reality is that the majority of Evangelical denominations are taking on this “unity and diversity” approach. They see both the damage and division that has been caused by “over” emphasizing certain doctrines. In other words they are changing from such hard stand on non-essential doctrines.
It does sadden me though as a listen to some very influential denominations(whether they call themselves this or not) that are “absolutely positive” they know everything about many on-essential doctrines and enforce certain teachings to the point of dividing themselves with communities and other churches
I am sure what we would find if we visited different Evangelical churches is a lot of “diversity” over different doctrines. But, as I said before, what it comes down to in “unity” is who Jesus was and is in our lives. this for me is the defining point of Christian or non-Christian.
[...] great things to think about this week. You’ve challenged me, encouraged me, made me laugh and you’ve kept me on my toes. My life needs to be an example of my relationship with Jesus. My words need to be an outpouring if [...]
My father was a Pastor and I have worked in the church. God uses people but sometimes people don’t listen. As Christians, we MUST ALWAYS discern what we are being fed with scripture and prayer. God speaks to us individually and the church is there only in a supporting role!!!
Blessings,
Debbie aka The Real World Martha(S)