Sexuality: Not Just A Guy Thing
If I had a nickel for every time I heard a pastor say something about guys struggling with sexual lust/porn/whatever, I could pay my way through a Master’s AND a Doctorate. Most preachers preach to the guys because of how visual they are and how the media bombards us with sexual images, etc.
But what about the girls? Granted we may not be as visually stimulated as guys, but we’re not blind or asexual. We have those feelings, urges, emotions…you get the point.
But heavens if a girl mentions she deals with lust….no we don’t discuss that at bible study. Maybe this goes back to the whole “girls are suppose to be clean and pure” idea that’s been around for years. I dunno. All I know is that if I see a guy who is hot, I’m most likely not thinking, “wow he must have a nice personality.”
Now does that mean if I see a guy and think he is attractive I am lusting? I don’t think so.
Definition of lust (according to dictionary.com): to have a strong or excessive craving, uncontrolled or illicit sexual desire or appetite, passionate or overmastering desire or craving.
I do not think it is a sin to look at a girl or guy and have a fleeting thought of attraction. To constantly think about that person (if they are not your wife/husband or they are someone else’s) over and over and over again until you cannot think about anything else, that’s lust. And it can take away the beauty of the rest of the world around us
Confession time: I have a BAD problem with lust. We’re not talking “wow, he’s an attractive gentleman,” but rather an intense desire to “get to know him” in the KJV biblical sense. Yes this is a girl talking! It doesn’t help that everybody I know is getting married and telling me that it’s “worth the wait”. Well what do I now? Sit and knit? It has become so bad at times I start fantasying about people I know and these thoughts cloud my mind and I can’t focus. There are times when I want to do nothing more than lie in bed and “let my mind wonder.” And like the black goo from Spiderman 3, it takes me over. Takes over my thoughts, my heart and my mind. And I don’t want that. I want to keep my sexuality safe for my husband (cause I’m sure not called to celibacy) so that when marriage does come along, I can think of him and only him. Plus, I’m not a big fan of the whole “it’s ok for my husband to lust after so and so. She’s hot.” I mean (and if this gets too personal I apologize) when I want my husband to make love to me, I want it be to well me. My beauty should be enough for him. I want him to think of me when we are together, not another woman. I don’t care how “good it gets”. It’s like mental cheating. But I digress. As for now, I’m taking it one step at a time.
Philippians 4:8:
Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.
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59 Responses for "Sexuality: Not Just A Guy Thing"
You are a human being and you will eventually have to deal with that. The idea of thought sins — lust being one — is frankly ridiculous because we don’t have any control over what thoughts pop into our conscious minds from the roiling under the surface.
I feel sorry for the Christian posters here because they really don’t like themselves. I disagree with the basic premise of Christianity that physical life is somehow tainted and needs to be controlled by spiritual forces.
I hope you guys grow up and learn to deal with the fact that you are humans. You will be much happier and more at peace than you ever can be constantly fighting against what you are.
That doesn’t mean we can’t change or improve ourselves, but there’s something morbid about the way Christians are always putting themselves down and making out like they are being humble or something. It’s not healthy.
I’ve never heard a Christian woman talk so openly about sex like this. Good for you. Hopefully you’ll get a healthy dialogue started.
I have for the most part refrained from any “I disagree with you…” comments but I disagree with you. I actually think you may have misspoken so i wanted to clarify.
I think you may have meant “I do not think it is wrong…” because it is very clear in Matthew 5:27+ that it is a sin.
Assuming I’m not way out in atheist left field here, I’d be curious as to how you reconcile things when what you perceive as not wrong are, in fact, sins. I am assuming that you believe that Jesus was a real person, who is god and actually said all that stuff.
writerdd/everyone
This is an extremely common theme amongst Christians. This is also an extremely flawed perspective. I speak as a person who is extremely guilty of this.
I believe that Christians “hate themselves,” as I have publicly done to myself too many times already, when they turn this beautiful faith into a religion of rules and regulations: do this, don’t do that, say this, don’t say this, act like this, don’t act like that, etc.
You create an unattainable goal: perfection. Like I said, I am very guilty of this. With that said, I also admit that I am dead wrong for teaching myself to think like this. It contradicts the whole idea of Christianity and is poisonous to the faith and the individual.
Kristina
I agree with Sara - good on you!
Thanks! I appreciate it. People are talking about this more and more. It was good to get out.
@writerdd
I don’t think recognizing your flaws are a bad thing. That’s how you grow. I recognize it and then I work to change it. Plus, it keeps me humble. Once I forget I am flawed, then I start calling everyone else out on their flaws. I gotta get the planks outta my eyes before I talk about others’ splinters.
I know I have good qualities but there’s so many of them, mere blog posts could not contain them.
@skeptigator
this is why I had the definition of lust in the post. lust implies uncontrolled and intense “wow she’s hot” over and over and over again, not fleeting thoughts “she’s pretty” and then move on. yes lusting is a sin in Matt 5:26-28.
I think our opinions on lust are different.
that was a good post
i do worry a bit for good christian males and females who choose to wait tho; erectile dysfunction, low libidos, premature ejaculation, ’stunted’ growth (!) etc. could well be lurking for you round the married corner…
being a dirty atheist with filthy morals certainly has its advantages…which is just as well seeing as i never plan on getting hitched. i think i asked this before, but not sure if i ever got the answer…where in the bible does it say that one should only have sex within the confines of marriage? please tell me it isn’t it the incestous polygamous OT?
meh, i guess i understand why pre-contraception, when disease and unwanted sprogs were a worry, sex was an issue that was worth addressing with the highest of solemnity…i just don’t get why these days a god/s would be quite so concerned with what the faithful were doing in the bedroom. and as for other believers sticking their noses in there….ewww
Like Sara I also didn’t hear that a Christian woman talk so openly about sex like this !!! Whats going on!!
Any Christians want to address ash’s comment? In particular:
I think, however (correct me if I’m wrong writerdd) that writerdd’s point was that you shouldn’t recognize your flaws, but just the opposite. I certainly have my own flaws, I’m male, so the it’s easy for me to site exactly what you described as one of them. But when I have thoughts like that, I usually let them linger just a second or two after I realize I’m having them, laugh at myself for it, and then get back to whatever I should be doing. It doesn’t make me any less of a person for it.
uh, that should read “wasn’t that you shouldn’t recognize your flaws” not “was”
sorry
I wanted to add something. I don’t think sexual fantasy is lust.
Lust is when you really want something that you can’t have. It has nothing to do with sex, necessarily. You can lust for a car you can’t afford, a chocolate cake you can’t have on your diet, or the gorgeous blond hair your best friend has.
Sexual fantasy is not lust because it is make believe. You don’t really want that other person.
So if your husband does fantasize during sex, that doesn’t mean you are not good enough or beautiful enough for him at all. It does not mean he wants to be unfaithful. The same is true if you fantasize during sex. You shouldn’t feel guilty unless, perhaps, you really do want to screw that movie star or the guy you saw at the gas station. But from your post, I don’t get that you really want to be unfaithful. Just that you have fantasies. This is not the same thing.
Many monogamous couples use sexual fantasy to spice up their love lives. I don’t see how or why this would be a sin. It probably keeps them from really lusting after someone else. So it is helping them avoid sin.
Great post, we should discuss sex more often.
Where is the sin in the shared love of two (or more) consenting adults? I appreciate that you want to maintain a level of mystery for your future spouse and even that you choose to honour him by remaining “unknown” by another man. I assume that you desire the same from him? You can also choose to heighten the pleasure of the main event by holding back and building up the anticipation. These are your choices and you have every right to stick to them.
You also have every right to defenestrate the rules and have mad, passionate, animal sex on the floor with whoever you want, as often as you want.
I don’t understand the idea of a creator who would give you with a wonderful and exciting way to express your love and passion with another person and then tell you that it was wrong to do so. That just seems cruel and unusual to me.
I’m not seeing your logic. If you fantasy about someone else while you’re with your partner, the focus goes off him and to that other person. Instead, I want to channel all my hormones Sex should be a connection of passion between
It’s like the old saying “Two’s a party, three’s a crowd.”
@ hoverfrog
I never said sex was bad. Sex is great. God never said sex itself is bad. Look at Song of Solomon! It’s in the right context in a committed relationship with someone who’s committed their lives to you where sex can become the best it can be.
Kristina, indeed but the context need not be important. Sometimes sex can just be sex. While sex within a commited relationship can be fulfilling you need not limit yourself unless you want to.
Kristina, sex is just sex. It’s not some big mystical thing. It’s just part of being alive, like eating and breathing. The fact that you are doing it with that special person means you are channeling your hormones, as you say. It’s too much work to make sure you are thinking about the “right” things while you are boinking. Just relax and have fun. If you are all worried about what you’re thinking about, that will ruin the whole experience, maybe even to the point where you can’t have an orgasm because you’re too uptight.
Also, it’s not “worth the wait,” as they say. Yeah it’s fun and exciting and all that, but I personally think that not having sex before marriage is a BIG mistake, especially for women. I wrote about this on my blog some time ago, if you’re interested:
http://www.sheeptoshawl.com/charity/archives/2006/02/entry_188.html
Your ideas will probably change a lot once you actually have sex and know what it’s like. I hope you have a good experience when that happens. Fantasizing can help you learn about what pleases you, as can masturbation. So there, now I’ll probably get kicked off the blog.
P.S. It is very refreshing to see an honest topic like this on a Christian blog. Unfortunately I have no Biblical advice to offer because I don’t follow the Bible. But I used to be an abstinence-practicing born-again single Christian until I was almost 30, and in retrospect, not having sex until I was that old was one of the stupidest things I ever did. And it was mostly because of fear, although I never would have admitted that at the time. So I’m just offering my life experience here, as person who finally got over her idea that sex was some huge important thing that had to be handled “just so”, and who has just celebrated her 18th wedding anniversary and is still happily married.
writerdd
I respectfully disagree with much of what you’ve said. I can do that, right?
In MY opinion:
I do. Hardcore. I have a very vivid and convincing imagination, as many guys do. I have to set up boundaries in order to keep myself from wandering into a sexual fantasy land of lust. I have software on my computer that monitors my internet activities and emails reports to my girlfriend and my brother. I took internet access off of my phone so I couldn’t look at porn on it. My friends and I are very open and honest with each other when it comes to lust, etc, and we hold one another accountable. You will never find me alone with a girl other than Tiffany. I know my weaknesses. I know my struggles. I also know where small, “insignificant,” “innocent” looks/comments can easily go. I’ve seen it happen one too many times. I choose to love, respect and honor ONE girl.
I don’t look at these things as bad. Quite the contrary, I LOVE these things. These are the things that enable me to love and be loved to my fullest! They help produce trust and honesty in my relationship.
Call me old fashioned, but to me sex/all things sexual is an/are an extremely large deal. I want my wife to know that she is the ONLY one I want. I want her to know that I’m NEVER going anywhere or to anyone else. I want her to ALWAYS know that I think she’s the most beautiful girl in the world, and for me to fantasize over any other girl would be silly (like me wanting my neighbor’s Ford Escort while my Dodge Viper sits in my driveway). I refuse to let MTV and Oprah tell me how to improve my sex life. IMO, the bible has all the answers. I’ve never heard a person say, “I applied all the information that the bible teaches about sex/love/relationships and my marriage SUCKS!” In contrast, sex book after sex book, sex expert after sex expert, magazine article after magazine article, this crap just isn’t working, friends.
All things considered, I’m no stick in the mud. I have a tremendous sexual appetite and I plan on giving ALL OF MYSELF to my future wife many times, many ways. What THAT was too much??
Good news: you’re not kicked off the blog
I have many to things to say regarding all this, but I feel I’ve pretty much said it all here, so I direct you there to read about the ills of sexual repression and my own experience with sex as a Christian-raised atheist.
**’I have many things to say,’ rather. Disregard that first ‘to,’ obviously.
Sara,
*cough*…Dartmouth…*cough*…Harvard…*cough*…English…*cough*
I had to.
No retaliation allowed. It would be too easy for you.
Bill, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
I basically concur with Sara that sexual repression is unhealthy and you should embrace your humanity more (and not just because of your comment on this post, but because of our other recent comments about the Christian tendency toward self hatred as well, it is all related). That’s not to say that you should indulge every sexual fantasy that pops into your mind, but you don’t need to repress them either. And I hope it’s obvious that I’m not suggesting that you cheat on Tiffany either.
I know this will sound rude, and I don’t mean it that way, but sometimes you guys just sound so young and immature. I can relate, because I was still acting like a teenager (afraid to have my first kiss, for pete’s sake) when I was 25, and I see so much of my old self in a lot of the posts here that it just makes me very sad.
writerdd,
It doesn’t sound rude. I appreciate your honesty. With that said, I’d have to send your statement right back at you. To me, approaching sex with such a casual/nonchalant approach seems a bit immature. I believe that this very attitude is a very large contributing factor to the downfall of society today.
Please don’t be sad for me. I love my life. I’m extremely happy and content. Again, I’m not giving you the standard Christian “I have Jesus so all is well!” auto-answer that you’ll often hear. I really mean it.
We haven’t even mentioned single mothers, teenage mothers, sexually transmitted diseases, etc. I guess I just don’t see even a worldly logical explanation/rationalization that could create a decent argument for this casual approach to sex.
I’m ok with agreeing to disagree. As always, writerdd (and everyone else), nothing but love here.
Bill, you sound like Yoda.
Fantasy leads to masturbation, masturbation leads me to porn, porn leads to the dark side. hmmm.
It’s not so simplistic as that. Perhaps your fantasies got out of control because you had been denying yourself an outlet. You obviously know yourself better than I do but I would think that a life of denial isn’t the healthiest way to live.
This may well end up as one of those topics where we agree to disagree.
True, but it’s good, eh?
Oh, please, the whole Christian fear-mongering “downfall of society” thing again. Sigh. I’m outta here, this is starting to piss me off.
I am certainly not casual of cavalier about sex and I never have been. I have been in a monogamous marriage for 18 years. But sex is a natural part of being human and suppressing it does nothing to make you more righteous or holy.
Sometimes reading this blog just reminds me of why I quit church in the first place. Good riddance to all that garbage that you guys have to deal with. I’m so glad I ditched all of that baggage.
Bill, you certainly don’t sound happy on this blog, but if you are, more power to you.
And THAT’S why I typically don’t get involved in the comments.
For the record, I was nothing but polite and conversational. I use phrases like “I believe” constantly. I didn’t attack and I wasn’t harsh, I simply stated my opinions as you stated yours.
Freakin’ rude.
Edit: if I was rude or inconsiderate, I apologize.
I’d be interested in knowing what exactly was said to set you off? What garbage are you referring to in “Christianity” or the “Church”?
I find it strange that nothing hurtful or rude was said towards you and yet you are the one leaving the room offended.
Conviction anyone?
I think in all honesty this post speaks to one of the major differences between a “believer” and the rest of the world. To someone who doesn’t believe in God or eternity then why would they be concerned with how they choose to live on earth? In fact, they would want to live as some lived in the bible with the motto:
“Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die”
The problem is, that as a Christian we know that we will stand before our Creator on the day of judgment to account for every action we chose on this earth. We also know that he has given us a guideline for a “moral” life on earth. Some of the rules we may not fully understand but it is understood that they are not in place to repress us, but to keep us from harm.
I’d be willing to talk with anyone offline about the many dangers in sexual sin, but I feel like it would be beating a dead-horse in this forum since Bill and the author of this post have already done an amazing job explaining first hand examples of how sexual sin has directly affected their life. The bottom line is this; ultimately God is concerned about the condition of our hearts. Lust and other sexual sins take away from beauty of God’s creation. And when there is lust of any kind (food, people, material things, money) it takes away from the Glory that is found in God. God is most glorified in us, when we are most satisfied in Him!
The Bible tells us in Matthew 6:19-21 to set our hearts towards our treasure in heaven. If you don’t believe in heaven, then it’s no surprise to me that you’d settle for the “treasures” of this earth, which in the end will all pass away!!!
For His Glory,
Jason
In case anyone is interested in reading the verses I used in my post above:
Mat. 6:19-21
A very basic misconception about atheists, right there.
I’m gonna go off on a limb here, and suggest:
The personal repression and frequent self-loathing that seems common in many Christians.
While not directly stated, it was implied that people who think like her are poisoning society. Whether or not that was the intention, that is how it came across.
Bill said:
Teen pregnancy and the rate of STDs are higher is communities that advocate an abstinence only policy to sexual health. That aside a church or religion interfering with a person’s choice to screw whoever they want is more than a little creepy. A church has no right to dictate how an adult should live their life. Neither does a government except where society could be harmed by the actions of others. A church shouldn’t even be loading people with guilt at the idea of loving another person. You may not see it that way but it’s coming across like that.
All that aside though, do you honestly think that the god who loves and cares for you as you describe will care if you have sex before you get married or even if you bother with marriage. If god wants love then does the ceremony really mean that much in expressing it? Surely the ceremony is for other people and each other, not for your god?
As for the whole “Christian baggage” thing, like I said before, I don’t think recognizing the things you need to work is something that should wear you down. Which is interesting because dwelling on your flaws can detract you from God and what He can do for you. I’m just learning to keep certain things in its rightful place either eliminating it or modifying it.
Also, I don’t ignore my sexuality and I’m not trying to get anyone to ignore theirs. It’s keeping it in the box until an appropriate time for someone who is actually worthy of it. The closest you can get to someone is through sex and no man is coming near me unless there’s a ring and a commitment for life.
Plus, I’m not scared of sex. Otherwise, I wouldn’t be talking about it. As for “fear of a good lover”, that’s where communication (and practice
comes in. You work with what you have. Your husband is yours and you are his. And if it’s not the best in the world, so what? Your husband has loads of other qualities that you find awesome.
Sara:
I think I may have misstated my point with my ‘less than honorable’ communication skills, so I apologize any confusion or hard feelings and would like a chance to clarify what I was really trying to get at…
First of all I need to make clear that by no means do I think that just because someone doesn’t believe in God that they are therefore restricted to only making immoral decisions. Nor do I think that just because someone believes in God they therefore ONLY make moral decisions. I think it is possible, at times, for everyone to make moral decisions; just like it is possible to make immoral ones as well. The difference is the source of our morality.
I understand that people with no faith in a Creator often times think beyond their selfish desires and are looking to do ‘good things’ for this world and those who are on it. In fact I know plenty of atheists who have the whole “serving others before serving ourselves” motto down better than most Christians.
However, my point was simply this. As a Christian, I believe that we don’t only answer to ourselves or our society for the choices we make, but we also answer to God. So with that said, the choices we make are not solely based on our own agenda or moral standards or even those of our society. I am concerned with what God calls good, above anything else, and therefore in the case with lust, an atheist may perceive what I choose to avoid as “repressing my sexual desire” but I see it as honoring God above my self; and there is nothing on this earth that can bring me more pleasure than that.
Once again, I apologize for my previous post, and how it “could’ve” been received. This, I think, shows the significance of good communication as well as the importance of not only someone’s understanding of what is being said, but also the author’s intentions.
I’m not offended. I just spent many years as a fundamentalist and sometimes discussions about Christianity trigger me and make me very sad and/or angry. So I have to take a break. This is no reflection on the actual discussion. Being an ex-fundie is like being a recovering alcoholic. It’s not something that you ever truly get over.
It has nothing to do with “conviction,” but I’m not surprised to hear that because it’s a common response. I don’t know why Christians can’t accept that some of us end up on a different path and are completely happy and satisfied with that.
And Sara is right about what I was referring to.
One thing’s for sure, sex is a hot topic!
writerdd:
First of all let me state that I have been married longer than you which may partially explain why I don’t know how to put those cool boxes around someone else’s quotes.
Anyway, what makes you think Christians don’t accept that others are on a different path? Chrisitans in general readily accept that others are on a different path, They may not like or agree with other paths but they do get there are other paths.
I am confused by all the generic hyperbole regarding Christians being somehow less tolerant, less educated or less able to make intelligent decisions because of the belief that Jesus Christ died to make atonement for mankind.
Furthermore, the reverse logic is also confusing …. if one decides to causally run around and have sex with anyone they choose and at anytime without regard to emotional, physical or spiritual consequences, how is that any different than a dog or a warthog?
Isn’t it more noble, more intelligent and more HUMAN to think of these things before action. Is a Christian repressed because they consider all of the consequences of any act before undertaking it? Is a Christian any less human because they CHOOSE to say, no I am not going to participate in a particular event because it may negatively effect themselves or another?
These choices you guys are talking about lead to consequences. If one chooses to avoid behaviors that could potentially injure or cause harm to others they should be considered insightful not repressed. These are the very differences between Human and Animal … the ability to consider consequences and make appropriate behaviors based on anticipated consequences.
As aggravating as this is to all of us, myself included, this is some of the best discussion we’ve had in some time. I agree with writerdd, “sex is a hot topic!”
For the record, I never suggested that sex should be taken lightly or that we should indiscriminately go around having sex with every person who strikes our fancy on a casual level. I’m monogamous myself, so I obviously have no problem with that lifestyle and I’m not saying it is a bad choice to make for anyone else. But just because it is right for me, does not make it right for everyone else. It makes my social life much easier knowing that I never have to decide if I’m going to have sex with anyone besides my husband, because I’ve already decided that I won’t.
I’m just saying that fantasizing and even masturbation are not bad for you and both can be part of a healthy and happy relationship and can actually help the single Christian who is trying to be chaste to succeed. There’s no reason to beat yourself up if you have sexual fantasies.
You can’t get pregnant or get an STD from fantasies or from masturbation and they can relieve an awful lot of tension in your life which can lead to you being less obsessed with actually having sex with another human being until you are in the type of relationship you feel is appropriate to include sexual activities.
I’m so glad that I never was taught that masturbation was a sin and that it could make me go blind or insane or grow hair on my palms! I hope none of you have been taught that stuff.
This discussion reminds me of the people who want to prevent abortion but who are also against birth control. D’oh!
Interesting discussion…
A vegetarian who likes meat but chosesn not to eat it for moral reasons is not going to get any sympathy from meat eaters who think eating meat is not immoral.
Similarly, Christians who choose to abstain from sex aren’t going to get support and sympathy and encouragement from atheists. It wouldn’t be realistic to expect it.
What I think they could reasonably expect is respect from atheists that it’s up to them how they live their lives.
I think atheists can expect that from Christians too.
We may not like each others’ choices but we can still respect that it’s up to them.
I’m curious about one thing…do any single Christians here think marriage is defined as one man and one woman, so gay people are never ever allowed to have sex? If you must be extremely glad you’re not gay…that you can hope to be married someday and then have lots of sex. Or, if you do think gay people are never ever allowed to have gay sex, do you think no-one is really born gay so it’s ok because if they really wanted to they could sort out their same sex attraction and find an opposite gender partner and get married and then have sex?
I’m an ex-evangelical Christian turned atheist/freethinker. I’m 35 years old, a virgin and have been completely celibate (no masturbation) since about 18. The guilt that I felt as a teenager over sexual thoughts and masturbation was so terrifying that the whole sex thing still scares me. I would sick for a whole week after “falling into sin” and beg God for forgiveness, promising that’d I’d never do such a terrible thing again. Of course, I always gave in and felt like I was going to burn in hell if I died that moment. I now realize it was just a natural way of releasing tension.
This is the damage that certain teachings by Christians can do to young minds, especially to emotionally sensitive people like me. I remember reading a book that said masturbation was one of the vilest sins possible and I my whole body was taken over my intense fear, like I was the worst person ever. I know rationally that sex isn’t a sin now but the whole “sex is dirty” feelings are still there.
Being celibate isn’t a problem now as I’ve learned to shut off most sexual thoughts and feelings, and it gets easier with age. There’s really no chance to get into a relationship anyway as I’m socially phobic around women.
Bill, You’ll never be alone with a girl besides your girlfriend? Really? What do you think will happen? Does she let herself be alone with other men? Seem like that could be cutting off a lot of wonderful people and interactions. Cutting off half of the people in the world seems a bit extreme. You have the “control” within you even if you don’t know it.
To add my two cents re: sex. Sex is what animals do to procreate and continue their species. Humans are wired the same way and this is why we find the opposite sex attractive, its nature at work. As much as we don’t like to admit it we are animals afterall. The only difference is we have a big brain telling us sex is something special.
Can sex be special? You betcha, but it also can just be a fun time. The act of sex does not require someone to be a victim. As adults we can agree to have casual sex with other adults, all of us had fun lets move on. I think part of the problem is the society/religion have told us for years there is something special/sacred about sex. People are scared of their natural urges and that can’t be healthy. People try and repress this feeling and when it comes out they go overboard. There is a very large middle ground between sleeping with everyone you see and locking your genitals in a closet til marriage.
Celibate Atheist, why not seek professional help (from a secular therapist if you like) for your fears?
I respect being celibate from choice but it sounds like your fears are limiting your life rather than you choosing celibacy and a lack of relationships with women.
Celibate Atheist, I’ve read a few accounts of gay “cures” that show a similar thing. A artificial fear and revulsion with their own body and natural desires is built up to combat “sin”. This has the effect of demonising their own thoughts to such an extent that their self esteem and body image is almost totally destroyed.
I’m not saying that this is normal for Christians but the seeds of this extreme attitude are evident in this conversation.
–
I’d like to take a moment to separate sex and the physical expression of love. I think the two are often confused, with good reason. It is really about our attitude to intimacy. If no emotional intimacy is present in a relationship then sex is just sex. Not that the physical act without the emotion is necessarily a bad thing, just that the act itself is secondary to the connection being made between two (or more) people. That’s not what we’re discussing at all though.
We’re talking about a relationship that is exciting, intimate and full of trust. At least that’s how Kristina comes across as waiting for. Now, if you have that and you have the desire for physical intimacy then what reason is there to wait?
I can understand a person having doubts that their partner feels the same as they do. This is perfectly normal and a very good reason to hold on and work out your doubts in a sharing and constructive manner.
I can understand that people have different libidos but that doesn’t seem to be an issue in this particular discussion.
What I think that we’re skirting round is the issue of outside pressure in a sexual relationship. This could come from family wanting you to be careful and not get hurt. It could come from friends who only want to look out for your interests. These are fine, laudable motives even if it really isn’t their business. What I have trouble with is that it seems as if the church is putting forth an attitude that sex outside of properly sanctioned marriage is wrong. As if an act of loving intimacy between consenting adults can be wrong. It seems as if the loving act is being demonised rather than the selfish sex act that I referred to earlier.
I don’t believe that it is the business of the church to monitor or dictate how people choose to express their love. More than that I believe that it is not the business of a religion to do this and, if gods or God really exist, it isn’t any business of the divine either.
Celibate Atheist, oh, I’m so sorry that you’ve had such a terrible problem with this and that you still haven’t been able to overcome the negativity.
We’ve been talking about this very topic on another blog I post on once in a while, de-conversion.com. You might find these two posts and the related comments interesting and helpful.
This one I wrote:
My Abstinence Education
http://de-conversion.com/2008/04/19/my-abstinence-education/
This one was written by someone else:
Abstinence and Education
http://de-conversion.com/2008/04/21/abstinence-and-education/
And don’t miss this amazing blog post (by someone I don’t know at all):
http://through-a-mirror-obscurely.blogspot.com/2008/04/sex-and-single-formerly-christian-woman.html
I hope you can find a way to (slowly) overcome your fears and move past this point. There is life after evangelicalism. I’m sure you’ve moved on in other areas of your life, and I just want to let you know that it IS possible to move on in this area as well! There are other people who have had the same experiences who would be willing to talk to you about this. You don’t have to forego sex for the rest of your life.
Wow, I just typed a long entry to CelibateAtheist and it disappeared.
I’ll wait to see if it just went into moderation or something before trying to recompose it.
hf wrote: We’re talking about a relationship that is exciting, intimate and full of trust. At least that’s how Kristina comes across as waiting for. Now, if you have that and you have the desire for physical intimacy then what reason is there to wait?
For people like Kristin and Bill it’s reason enough that they believe physical intimacy outside marriage is morally wrong. Because God says it’s wrong.
Writerdd, got it. All those links pushed it into the spam filter.
Helen, I maintain that it is the church and the religion that says that sex outside of marriage is wrong. Men and women dictating to other men and women how they should act. I grant you that the voice of God is silent to my ears but I would imagine that a loving god would look at the intent and love before the rules and ceremonies.
I think it’s fine for Bill and Kristin to stay celibate until marriage, I just hope they don’t end up with an unhappy marriage because they are not sexually compatible and they didn’t find out before they tied the knot and now they’re stuck (if they also believe divorce is immoral).
I just get turned of by people telling me something is a “sin” as though because it is wrong for them, or because some ancient book says it is wrong, that automatically means that it is wrong for everyone else. I am much more egalitarian than that and my moral code is based on alleviating and preventing suffering, not following old stodgy rules “because God said so”. I need a better reason to consider something immoral.
hf, thanks for finding writerdd’s post.
I understand what you’re saying, but I think as far as Bill and Kristina are concerned God said it.
writerdd I’ve seen people who aren’t Christian warn about sexual incompatibility before and wondered about that. Marriage always involves compromises. If two people are in love won’t they be able to figure something out? Is it likely that something sexual will be unresolvable so that one or other partner thinks “I love you but I need to find someone more ’sexually compatible’ with me” Wouldn’t people who wait in order to have sex with each other be able to work out how to have a great sexual relationship?
Helen, here’s how I look at it. Some people would go nuts being married to someone who leaves the toilet seat up or doesn’t put the cap on the toothpaste. If you wouldn’t marry someone before finding out if they clean their house, why would you marry them before finding out how they are in bed?
Also, men are usually easier to please sexually than woman. I’ll leave out the graphic details, but pretty much most men aren’t very choosy and it doesn’t take much for them to get “in the mood” or to have an orgasm. It’s much more complex for most women, and if a woman marries someone who won’t or can’t do what it takes for her to be sexually satisfied, that is very sad as far as I’m concerned. It might have nothing to do with the person not wanting to be a good lover.
Some body shapes just fit together uncomfortably (speaking from personal experience) and no matter how much you love the person and they make you horny, sex just doesn’t work well enough to be satisfying.
So, that’s my experience for whatever it’s worth. If you want to be married to someone and maybe never reach orgasm or have sex that you consider mediocre for your whole life and that’s OK with you, more power to you. It’s a personal choice and one that I wouldn’t make for myself.
If you wouldn’t marry someone unless you’re satisfied they’re sexually compatible with you, I respect that.
Speaking for myself, I can’t imagine not marrying someone I want to marry because of sexual imcompatibility.
If a husband and wife love each other and want to make each other happy I don’t see why that wouldn’t include sexually as well. Why would a man want to please his wife generally but be selfish when it comes to sex and not care about her experience with it?
I respect that people’s bodies are what they are but I believe two people who want to can figure out how to have an enjoyable sexual relationship with each other even if the physical reality is not ‘ideal’.
If they don’t want to - if they want to explore that before marriage and decide whether they’re satisfied enough they’re compatible enough to get married, well, that’s up to them. I just don’t think it has to be a deal breaker.
I have the same attitude as you - these things are personal choices.
I may be wrong - but I think the biggest dangers of the Christian ‘wait until marriage’ approach are a) rushing into marriage in order to have sex and then finding out you wish you hadn’t married this person at all b) having sex anyway because you aren’t as able to wait as you thought - and because it was unplanned it’s without birth control - and so it results in pregnancy.
Thanks for all your responses and links. I have more important things to deal with than sexuality at this moment (counselling is out of the question), but it’s nice to know help is available if I want it. I’m grown comfortable with the fact that I may be single and sexless for the rest of my life. Life could be worse.
True Helen. It’s never good to rush into marriage just for sex. Which I’m kinda glad that I don’t really have anyone as of now. I want to be at the place in my life where if the sex ends up “ok”, then I have a million other things to love them for.
As for the whole “I’m not doing it because God just said it’s wrong.”
That’s part of it I guess. I don’t know if it is the whole story. I wouldn’t (at least mentally and emotionally) want to be with a guy just for kicks or even if we were together forever. Even if I wasn’t a Christian, to me, sex is the closest you can ever get to someone and quite frankly I want commitment before I give myself away.
[…] linked this sad blog post by a woman trying to talk herself into waiting for sex when the wait is torturing her, and I appreciated it for being such a snapshot of how the fundie attitudes about sex are […]
Kristina, I think conscious intention makes a difference in the moral significance of thought.
A moment’s passing fancy about another person can hardly be avoided. It’s like “Don’t think of an elephant”. An intetional, carefully-developed fantasy that is deliberately indulged is obviously a different thing. It m or may not be immoral, but to be sure the more you do it the easier it will be to do more of it.
By analogy, a moment’s irritation at your boss is nothign to get excited about, but if you find yourself spending an evening imagining in great detail how you would like to torture him, you clearly have a serious problem and need professional help or at least a new job.
The big problem I see with “keeping sex in a box” is that it doesn’t keep.
Just as you can’t become a good skier by “saving your skiing for Banff”, you can’t have a successful marriage by simply putting your sexuality away until your wedding night and expect it to be perfect on the first try.
That doesn’t mean you need to “practice” with a partner (although for mysef, I don’t think it would do you any harm), but at the very least I think you would benefit from thinking abotu sex, indulging in sexual fantasy (provided you don’t let it get out of control as the unfortunate Bill has), and by masturbating.
Even then, I trust youhave sense enough to know that sex won’t be perfect the first time, or evn the fifth time.
In fact, sometimes it doesn’t get really good until aftr the first year or twelve….
It doesn’t have to be perfect to be enjoyable. In fact, sometimes, getting it wrong can be fun.
So true…
Kama Sutra.
Best. Sexygift. Ever.
Not necessarily because it’s sensual (though it can be), but mostly because it’s hilarious(-ly awkward) to try the ideas out!
Sara, so true. The names of the sex positions are really funny too.
“Furthermore, the reverse logic is also confusing …. if one decides to causally run around and have sex with anyone they choose and at anytime without regard to emotional, physical or spiritual consequences, how is that any different than a dog or a warthog?”
Ummm, wow. First of all, choosing not to be a virgin at marriage doesn’t mean being casual about your sexuality. I didn’t wait, and I was never casual. Second, most people (who have any kind of sexual ethics at all) do not disregard the “emotional, physical or spiritual consequences.” They just don’t think that having sex outside of marriage creates such severe consequences that it isn’t worth it.
And so true, Helen. I’ve never even hinted this to her, but I think this may be the reason why one of my friends got married (she is now getting divorced due to extreme mental cruelty. Although that’s not what the divorce petition will say.)
I used to plan on waiting until marriage to have sex. Then I changed my mind, because I decided that while having sex was a profound risk that should not be underestimated, I was able to (and wanted to) take that risk, and I was uncomfortable with the idea that my spiritual status was somehow connected to doing something that was not hurting me or anyone else. And no, sexual compatability isn’t something you can neccessarily just work on. Sexual mechanics, yes, but I did go out for a while with a guy I really wanted to be sexually attracted to, but our makeout sessions were really unexciting. (More so for me than him.) In some ways, he was a better kisser (technically) than some of the other men I’ve kissed, but the fundamental click factor just wasn’t there. Not that you have to have sex to recognize that (he and I never did) but I would be leery of any religious practice that forbids all sexual expression, since it might leave you bound to someone who you really cannot get excited about.
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