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The last thing I want to do is defend myself for every little thing I say. I have neither the time nor the energy to do that. The things that I say are controversial and many of you might not even agree with what I say. From the beginning I announced that I wouldn’t be reading [tag]FriendlyChristian.com[/tag] reviews/critiques. With that said…
To all you who’ve linked to this site - thank you! Typically, I like to see who is linking to me, visit their site, send the site author an email and build a relationship. I’ve found, though, that not everyone who links to FC is a big fan of me.
From this point on, any time that I feel like I’m being attacked, cornered, or analyzed, I will point readers to this post.
A few important reminders:
- I don’t apologize for the things that I say
- I’m very well aware that nothing I say will convince anyone to become a [tag]Christian[/tag]
- I am not trying to convert anyone.
- I’m not struggling with my [tag]faith [/tag](if you only knew how many times I’ve read this one)
- I’m not searching for an excuse to abandon [tag]Christianity[/tag]
- I’m most likely not going to get into a comment [tag]debate [/tag]with you
- I respect your opinion. I hope you respect mine
Now, I’m very well aware that the bigger this site grows, the more the critics will surface. My purpose, regardless of how big we get/how many critics we get, will remain the same: to record the adventures of my journey in the Christian faith…to not hold back…to say what’s on my mind/what I’m feeling lead to say. If you guys continue to accompany me on my journey - fantastic! If not, well…peace out!!
It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes short again and again, who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause, who at best knows achievement and who at the worst if he fails at least fails while daring greatly so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat. [tag]Theodore Roosevelt[/tag]
Critics - fire away. I’m committed to FriendlyChristian.com. From the looks of it…you are too!!
To all the FriendlyChristian visitors, Christian or not, thank you for your dedication to this site. I love being part of this with you guys! Although the discussion gets heated from time to time, I hope you’re enjoying building relationships as much as I am. I’m grateful for each and every one of you!!!!
Comments…comments………….comments!!!
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Hey Bill, this blog that you’ve been called to is a hard deal…but God obviously feels you can handle it, so do I.:)It does get heated at times, but the enemy would love nothing more than to keep people from eternity with Him and keep the blinders on….so I get a bit passionate at times…sorry:-??
There have been a couple times, when I’m going Bill, where ya goin??? but then you always bring it back…I pray for you daily, and am very thankful you’ve taken this on!!! I’m sure you will hear, well done, good and faithful servant when you get there!!!!! Love from a sista,
Hi Bill,
I would lay real money on the fact that your bigget detractors have been “hard-core” believers. Why do I say that? Forgive me if you already know about him, but if not, check out \\nakedpastor.com. He really is a pastor. Check out his “About me” section and take a look at the vitriol heaped upon him “in the name of love” from his “brothers and sisters.”
I often wonder how it is that we are going to survive. People are so different.
Gods Gal and I are what I would call diametric opposites. I don’t see how we could EVER reconcile our opposing views of the nature of God and the universe and humanities ultimate purpose and destiny.
It seems all we can do is to RESPECTFULLY agree to disagree.
If it were as simple as that it might actually be possible.
The problem I have is there are people who share the same views as Gods Gal, who say that all infidels, homosexuals and other ‘deviants’ should be stoned or put to death out right. These people are jockeying for real power in this country.
side note: I don’t believe that you feel this way Gods Gal.
So what am i to do? Just accept my minority roll and ‘deal with it’ as Sista said in a previous post?
What do I tell my kids? 8-|
Robert
Boy Robert you’re lucky you put in your little disclaimer….:-w LOL
Robert, if this country were to be attacked again by terrorists, and I believe it will be as they are already here….and you saw me lying in the street and needed help, would you help me? or would you ask me my religion, sexual orientation, what I had for breakfast first?
Bill, what are your thoughts on what Robert is struggling with here?
I totally agree with you Robert. It sickens me that some of those people are fighting for power in this country. They claim the “christian” title then by their ridiculous actions and words; they speak for the rest of us (Christians)! It’s maddening. The same way a rude, loud mouth Atheist might put that same title over you in someone else’s eyes…and THAT you are not!
I think it can be places like this where you, Ed, Helen, GG, Darla can begin making, at least, a small start in a civil direction.
As far as our kids…it’s the toughest job in the world isn’t it? It breaks my heart sometimes then frightens me to death when i think of this world I’m sending them into. All we can do is lead by example, love deeply, respect others, respectfully disagree and live our convictions…just to name a few things.
And you’re right as well…GG is definitely not that kind of Christ Follower! Neither am I…:)
@Gods Gal…
My goal is to live out my faith…not put a title on it.
The word Christian has almost lost its meaning…or completely taken on a new meaning. It’s sad.
Gods Gal
You have illustrated my point perfectly!
You and I would ask no such questions!
But there are those amongst who would!!!
That’s what I find so disturbing!
Robert
Also….
The people who attacked the United states on 9/11/01…
No doubt these were Muslims of extremist flavor.
There are Christians, or people who would call themselves thus, who might in engage in the same acts if they felt pushed to the wall.
My point is I think that any belief system take too far can make any person capable of horrific acts of violence.
In the end we all might be forced to choose who we will stand with…
I live in the only state in the union that has legalized the union of same sex couples…for my part I am proud of that fact. But I have heard extremists of all types speak of doing violence in my state to ‘punish’ us.
In such a situation where would you stand?
Tam? God’s Gal? Bill?
I think I know enough of you three to know for sure that all of you would be on the side of compassion.
It’s those who are less flexible that i worry about!
Robert
Oh I have a question for the three of you I just named.
Again I am not trying to trap you intellectually or anything of the sort.
How do you as Christians deal with the wrath of God exhibited in Leviticus and the old Testament in general.
I really would like to know because it is, in part, the old Testament God that was responsible for many of the questions that led me to my secular/atheistic-agnostic world view.
Robert
Robert: Keep in mind that you can’t change anyone but you. By that I mean it can get over bearing at times (I know it does for me) and I need to get my focus back on me and not trying to change the world. Like Bill says, we’re not here to change the world, just present our beliefs…my challenge I am finding is to not get defensive when others don’t agree….for me it’s a more of a heart hurt than anger. As for your kiddos, it’s the toughest thing in the world. My youngest son is military, and he will be the first one to tell you that his strength comes from God alone…not because we beat it into him, but because we went seeking on his own and found Him to be real. We did go through quite a time with each of our kids, but learned to stay out of it believing in the promises God had for our children, and He proved Himself faithful in their lives again. You need to understand that I put great value in each human life, regardless of belief and it’s not my job to judge anyone….I have come to respect you and your views…and glad we can discuss things.:)
Robert: I wrote my other response before I read your questions, I have a meeting but will be back….good questions!!!
Robert, Great question! I’m rushing out the door and will get back to this later… Looking forward to this discussion…
Hi Robert: I’m back…… The people who attacked in 9/11 were in a religion that taught them since they were young to hate and kill, and that blowing themselves up would somehow earn favor with their god. The God I serve, wants nothing more than to do the opposite. That’s why we keep saying it is about relationship, and not religion. We don’t have to DO anything to earn God’s favor, it’s all been done at the cross. All we have to do is accept it and as you can see, it really is hard for some people. You made a statement in your earlier post, that in the end we all might be forced to choose who we will stand with…..I agree, we will. There are no gray areas here, you are for Him or against Him. So yes, I do believe that day is coming. I’m sorry that people are threatening others who have a different lifestyle. Don’t take offense here, but I can’t take a stand for homosexual lifestyle. I can stand for the people, but not the lifestyle. I will always, regardless, have compassion on the people, but to me homosexuality is not a good thing. I can feel the heat already, but that is my position. I hope I was completely heard tho, I care about the people, regardless. I don’t believe and would never support violence against them…that’s ridiculous! They’re human beings for pete’s sake! God views all sin as sin, it’s man that has put degrees on it. There is no one sin that grieves His heart more…it’s all sin to Him.
I often hear that the God of the Old Testament seems very harsh/brutal and “evil” from our atheist friends. To me, these claims are an attack on God’s character, but are the claims true or are they missing something? Knowing that God is good, when I hear this, the first verse that pops into my head is:
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! (Isaiah 5:20)
The intent of many of those who make such claims is to make a good God look evil to justify their position of rejecting Him, His Word, or even His existence. But if God didn’t exist and the Bible weren’t His Word, there would be no basis to say that good and evil exist, and brutality would be neither good nor bad. In the time of Sodom and Gomorrah, the Lord revealed to Abraham that Sodom and Gomorrah has sinned exceedingly. Their wickedness was not entirely revealed (Ezekiel 16:49) but we do know of their acts of sodomy (later in the chapter) had overtaken them in their actions, enough to rape.
Abraham asked if God would sweep away the righteous with the wicked. He asked the Lord if there were 50 righteous, would the Lord spare it; He said yes. He asked the Lord if there were 40 righteous, would the Lord spare it; He said yes. He asked the Lord if there were 30 righteous, would the Lord spare it; He said yes. He asked the Lord if there were 20 righteous, would the Lord spare it; He said yes. He asked the Lord if there were 10 righteous, would the Lord spare it; He said yes. This reveals how wicked and sinful the people were. They were without excuse and judgment was finally coming. Lot and his family numbered less than 10 in Sodom and Gomorrah (Lot, his wife, his two daughters, his two sons-in-law, and two angels only made 8, the same as the Flood). Yet, God provided a means of salvation for them. The angels came and helped them get to safety.
I hope this helps explain that God acts justly, punishing those whose crimes reach a point that it is time to act. Interestingly enough, people who say God is cruel want justice when they are wronged, e.g., if someone steals from them, attacks them, and so on. So they really have a double standard. God is the same God of the Old Testament and New Testament. In both cases, people have/had the opportunity to get back to a right relationship with Him. In both cases, God judges sin. Mercy and patience were to be found through God’s vessels Noah, with his preaching for years, and Abraham, with his pleading for Sodom and Gomorrah (even Lot urged the people not to be so wicked)—just as mercy and patience are still available today. And He has provided a means of salvation in Jesus Christ.
No one can blame God for not providing a merciful alternative or call Him evil for providing justice against sin. Oh boy…..sorry this is so long…….
Tam said, in post #5:
“I think it can be places like this where you, Ed, Helen, GG, Darla can begin making, at least, a small start in a civil direction.”
Gods Gal said in post #10:
“I have come to respect you and your views…and glad we can discuss things.”
Comments like the above are why I am an optimist about the future. When I read articles about a group of people it is easy to be mislead about them. When I talk to them I learn they are caring people who I have much more in common with.
When I talk to Tam and Gods Gal I learn they are not “bible thumping” lunatics.
Hopefully when they talk to an atheist like me they learn I am not the devil incarnate.
Of course we also learn we are a little crazy, but at least that’s a trait we both share.:)
I have faith in human nature. The more people I talk to, from different backgrounds and different cultures, the more my optimism is reinforced.
Hi Gods Gal…
You said:
I take that to mean ‘hate the sin, love the sinner’. It is hard to argue with that and I won’t indict you for your views regarding the morality of homosexuality. Another agree to disagree moment
As long as you reject violence I think you and I will get along fine. 
I have a few friends and several coworkers who are homosexual. To me it’s just a another aspect of who they are.
One thing I’d like to mention, ten years ago though I had a co-worker who considered himself a ‘born-again’ Christian. One day as we were discussing political events the subject of homosexuality came up and I put to him this question: “What if your son told you he was gay?” I’ll never forget his response because it sends chills down my spine to this day. He said, “I would turn my back on him! He would no longer be my son.” He then quoted the appropriate verses of Leviticus to justify his view.
I have four children, 2 of each flavor. I couldn’t imagine anything they could do short of murder that would ever make me not love them anymore. Yet my co-worker passed this sentence so matter-of-fact-ly.
It’s that type rigid acceptance of a Biblical concept that bothers me.
I am in no way suggesting that your reaction would be the same. But here is a man who uses the same book you draw your inspiration from but draws FAR different conclusions.
Your post further outlines how you are able to justify the wrath of God in the Old Testament on the basis of human wickedness.
I can’t quite follow your reasoning to the conclusions you make.
That said, I believe that it is perfectly acceptable and logical to you.
Again maybe it’s because I am bound by a different covenant.
Have you ever heard or read anything by Episcopal bishop John Shelby Spong?
Give the wikipedia article a quick read…for me please. ;;)
You might have a better idea where I am coming from.
Again I thank you for your honesty and patience with an infidel like me!
Gods Gal, I consider you a friend and nothing could change that!
Peace,
Robert
Tam said in post #5
“As far as our kids…it’s the toughest job in the world isn’t it? It breaks my heart sometimes then frightens me to death when i think of this world I’m sending them into. All we can do is lead by example, love deeply, respect others, respectfully disagree and live our convictions…just to name a few things.”
Tam if your are worried for your children think how my great-grandfather felt when he fled Ireland where people were starving by the thousands.
Thank about how worried my father was during the Great Depression.
Think about how frightened I was when I was to told how to find a bomb shelter when the nuclear war with Russia starts.
I become optimistic, my word for the day :), when I think about all the terrible trials we have survived in the past.
Your children will overcome any trials they face, just like you have.
Thanks Ed, I can’t speak for Tam, but I think she would agree that we are glad with have found our new friends….atheist or not…..missed you yesterday tho!!!!! :d/ I don’t worry about my kids anymore, they are adults now, and know where they are headed, it brings this Mom’s heart great peace…thank you for your kind thoughts.
Robert,
Your question is a great one, and one that I believe all believers in God (Jews, Christians, etc.) should be able to answer … not just for others, but for themselves. To me, it is an issue of judgment and grace. R.C. Sproul said it best, “We are no longer amazed by grace and we are shocked–in total consternation–by justice.” I’ll attempt to explain (Just remember, I am not a very smart guy).
I believe that the “tree” in the Garden of Eden was necessary for us to have freewill … for us to be able to choose God and choose to love him (or not choose him). Also, I believe the tree represents God’s love for us, but that’s another topic for another time :d
There are many passages in the Bible that cause us to ask, “How could a loving God do this?” You mentioned Leviticus, which brings to mind the story of the sons of Aaron (Lev. 10:1-7). In explaining this story, Sproul writes, “It is shocking how understated the Bible is sometimes. Two of Aaron’s [sons] fall dead and no emotional reaction is recorded. You can imagine Aaron’s response–”I’ve been faithful and is this the thanks I get?” But what is significant is Moses’ reply–”Don’t you remember the commandment: “By all who come near me I will be regarded as holy. I will tolerate nothing less.” Lots has changed since Moses and Aaron’s conversation, but not the character of God. He has never, and will never, negotiate his holiness.”
Somewhere along the line, we’ve forgotten that God is ultimately holy, and we aren’t. Thinking back to creation, the list of capital offenses was unending …”The day you eat of it, you shall surely die.” No matter how small the sin, the sinner is stating that their will trumps God’s will. We’ve forgotten God’s holiness is unchanging. We’ve also forgotten about justice - our view is distorted.
How have we forgotten? How has the view been distorted?… Again I turn to Sproul,
“We are so accustomed to grace. Like the Israelites, we need God, ask for grace, receive it, forget it, and go back to sinning–despising God’s holiness without fear of his judgment.
Now to Luke 13. Two disasters: Pilate kills worshipers and mixes the blood with the sacrifices, and the tower of Saloam falls killing 18 innocent bystanders. Question for Jesus: “What’s up with this? Where was God?” But on 9/11, God was in the same place he was in 9/10–sovereign on his throne.
Jesus did not say that these two events happened while God was asleep. Jesus did not say that God was diverted by counting the hairs on someone else’s head.
Jesus gave the same answer regarding each disaster: “You’re asking me the wrong question. If you really wanted to know about the providence of God, you would ask the real question–why didn’t the temple fall on my head? Why wasn’t it my blood.”
We are shocked by justice and presume upon grace.
I’ve been asked every conceivable theological question except, “Why did God save me?” We all harbor the idea that we deserve it. We think that heaven just wouldn’t be heaven without us. This is the greatest lie in the history of the world.”
You can read more about this here.
Again, great question. Oh, and if you, or anyone here, were lying in the street, I’d certainly do my best to help
Oh, I left out another key point … the Doctrine of the Incomprehensibility of God. Basically, he is God and I am not … there are some things I am not going to understand, but I know Him, and accept His sovereignty. I know this is hard for many to understand, but that doesn’t change it’s truth for me. Hope it helps.
@Bill
I broke a rule yesterday. I went to the middle urinal. What now?
Hi bryan
You said:
I have to say that’s a very interesting take on the the whole Genesis story, which I have HUGE issues with.
Consider this: given the God’s omniscience, wouldn’t He have known that Adam and Eve would obey?
Would Eve have been tempted hadn’t that pesky snake been there is the first place?
Why would God, omnipotent as he is, allow Satan to cause the trouble he has/does?
I’ve heard it explained that evil is simply going against the will of God. If that’s the case there really isn’t a need for Satan, evil personified, in the first place.
Again I’m not trying to be a jerk here. I’m just trying to address the logical inconsistencies I see.
ciao,
Robert
Hey Robert: That gets into the whold predestination vs. free will thing, I blogged about it here… if you want to read about it….I like your questions!!!
W00t!
@Robert- I just want to express my heart in the “same sex” marriage. Although it is against everything I believe, I am also against the violence that has occured around it. I have some very dear friends who are gay, and I love them. They are people, and they know where I stand. They also know if they need help I will be right there. They have a joke about me … “straight Christian girl not homophobic-oxymoron” LOL I have been called worst.
As a Christ follower, I see all sin as sin. In the light of that, I am no better! I am a sinner, and in need of a Szvior.
Let me stretch out my hand to you, and welcome you to the human race-but be careful there is a lot of crazy people out there, and some how they don’t think we are all human.~o)coffe? :-??
Szvior=savior LOL it is so how I speak and spell today.=))
The wrath of God that is in the old testament is very scary stuff…and I can see where that would send some packing the other direction. But the whole book has to be read together and not taken out of context. That is the beauty in the sacrfice of Jesus,(and HE did not stay dead), it satisfied the wrath of God. I believe that God the Father and God the son are one. Therefore even God knew that HIS wrath had to be satisfied, and a bridge needed to be built to HIM. I don’t want to spend my eternity under the wrath of the Oldtestament, but some will…its a gift to not live under the wrath and judgement. It doesn’t cost anything..its totally free, I don’t think there are strings attached.
I respect your views, and whatever you think you will think. Just what I build my life on.:)>-
I see you can spell it with an alpha or an omega.
=))
@Siamang…
Very nice =d>
hahahaha very good! Siamang =))
Robert regarding your question, “How do you as Christians deal with the wrath of God exhibited in Leviticus and the old Testament in general.” I don’t know that I can add anything better than what GG has already said…not to borrow…but it is so well explained. I believe the God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New Testament and now today. The only difference is His Son Jesus coming to bridge the gap between man and God. I thank God is exercising a great amount of patience with His creation as Jesus pleads constantly on our behalf, Romans 8:34.
To All the Christians who responded:
Thank you for your personal explanations regarding the character of God displayed in the Old & New Testaments.
My conclusion is that all of you are convinced in the literal truth of the Bible. Clearly it works for all of you.
I would like to take this opportunity to explain my take on the Bible.
What if the Bible was not meant to be taken as a literal truth. What if the stories and parables were just that? Stories and parables used to convey very revolutionary and deep truths.
Does it take away from the value of those truths if they are just stories?
Many cultures have had their own mythologies used to convey a moral teaching, but we don’t think of them as literally true.
The ancient greeks had a vast and rich mythological magisteria but we don’t actually believe that the stories of Zeus, Hera, Apollo and Athena are literally true.
I truly believe that there is much value in what the Bible says about human morality and destiny. But need the Bible have to be LITERALLY true? There is much beauty in mythological truth.
Over the last two thousand years humanity has come so far in our understanding of the physical universe. I freely admit that the method we use to understand that universe: science…is not perfect.
I believe that Science explains accurately how humanity came to be. But it doesn’t explain and may never to able to explain why.
Gods Gal you have said in effect that we are more than just evolved apes. I agree! No ape can ever write poetry, create sonnets, or compose an opera. We are destined for far greater things. We are the only life form that understands that we are mortal, our time is limited. That makes us aware of how precious life is. A Christians faith in Jesus Christ could NEVER be cheapened by Evolution.
I believe Christianity is an attempt at a true relationship with God. But I also believe that it’s incomplete.
I am in the midst of trying to synthesize a view of the spiritual with that of the physical…
I may never fully achieve such a synthesis, but I know at the core of my being that as long as I am open and honest in my pursuit that God is honored by my quest!
Sincerely,
Robert
They are, I’m not sure where you got that we believe everything is literal….Tam wrote a while back on how Jesus used parables MANY times for bigger pictures and meaning. You might have missed it? But ya, I agree with you. You know what’s amazing to me Robert? It’s that I can be in a service and listen to the message, read the same Bible, hear the same speaker, yet when it’s over, everyone will have gotten something different from it. Something that they needed to hear and the Lord spoke specifically to them about. It’s amazing to me how He reaches so many differently at the same time.
I don’t agree with sciences explanations of how humans came to be…but I do agree that that Christianity is incomplete…..it will be complete however when the Lord comes back and things are finally the way they were originally intended to be. I hope you keep on your trek of spiritual and physical, I believe it will one day lead you to the ultimate truth. It truly is much easier than people make it!
Gods Gal
You know with each comment I read of yours I gain a little bit more respect for you.
I would be honored to count you as a friend were we living in the same neighborhood.
Even though our methods are different I think our goals are the same.
Robert
Robert….you’ve paid me the highest compliment and I don’t take that lightly…Thank you…I feel the same way, as far as I’m concerned, while we’re on earth we are in the same neighborhood, and I do count you as a friend. Hey, you may want to check out my new blog entry, I’d appreciate your comment!
I am thoroughly loving this discussion friends! I love how considerate, friendly and respectful we’ve become. Robert, I absolutely love your heart on this. I love your honesty and how you present it. Thank you! You make me think! Although I AM very sad about one thing…I WANT TO BE YOUR FRIEND TOO:(( Just kidding! NO, I’m not kidding…you know what I mean.
What I had said before about Jesus speaking in parables is because our minds and ways of thinking are so limited, so far beyond the greatness of Gods, that a simple parable was, at times, best used to illustrate a truth he was trying to convey - it was understood in its simplicity. So were they all literal? I don’t believe so. But there a life changing messages in them all!
I hope you all have a fantastic day! I have been super busy the last couple days. My daughter has been having some near fainting incidents and rapid heart rate - so she had an EKG and some blood work yesterday - I’ll keep you all posted. And now my Mother in law is here! Lord help me!:o
@Tam
How could I not consider you a friend your heart is so pure!!!
I’ll keep your daughter in my thoughts…
In-Laws…they truly do test don’t they!
R
Tam, My thoughts are with you for the health of your daughter.
I don’t know that any amount of praying will help you with you mother-in-law.
Robert said “In-Laws…they truly do test don’t they!”
Ed said, “I don’t know that any amount of praying will help you with your mother-in-law.”
I say, AMEN:-j
Thanks for your thoughts friends - I’ll keep you posted