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I wonder if you could help me out. I’ve been told several times recently that Christians have their prayers answered and that they benefit from their relationship with God. My first response was “How? In what ways do Christians benefit?”. Typically I receive some anecdotal tale of recovery from illness, new job, inner peace, or even found car keys.
Anecdotes make for poor evidence.
Given this fact I have begun to explore the issue and I’ve been looking for evidence to support the assertion that “Christianity works”. My assumption at the beginning was that there would be little difference between atheist and Christian when it came to health, happiness and society.
I have started a thread on the forum that I hope people will contribute to. I am looking for evidence as to where, if at all, Christianity or atheism leads to an improvement in life. This is not a trick and I don’t have some diabolical atheist agenda. I’m just curious.
Feel free to spread the idea around.
Popularity: 14% [?]
Unless you really want to grasp the idea of God and his changing people’s lives, you will never believe because that is who you are.
For me, I was a depressed and suicidal person before I met God. I am constantly changed and pushed by God every single day to do my best in every single thing I do.
Just look at my blog to see how much he is in my life. How can you deny there is no improvement?
You can deny it because you just simply choose to ignore it.
I have literally just said this to Tam on God’s Gal’s blog when she said that I cannot measure the Spirit.
Adam, you have changed and are happier since you found God. Wonderful! If thousands of other people experience the same profound change then it should be a simple matter of pointing me towards the study that shows the percentage of happy Christians is greater than the percentage of happy atheists.
Honestly I am in no position to deny anything. I have a distinct lack of evidence either way which is something that I hope to address.
hoverfrog,
I think there should be a study to this. It would be interesting to look into. All I have are my experiences with other Christians and they went from being sad to happy when they became a Christian.
I’m glad that you are asking these things. Very few people do.
Maybe I’m oversimplifying (and I am) but doesn’t Christianity basically come down to Faith. You can embellish it with all kinds of things about helping others, loving others, etc., certainly worthy goals but not uniquely Christian. What really sets the Christian apart is Faith.
If the definition of Faith is belief beyond reason or evidence then that would make your question kind of a non-sequitur. Or put another way if you are looking for the path from non-believer to Christian your starting point (evidence) isn’t even in the right direction.
Go Chargers!
Thanks K. I’m sure converts do feel happier. I just want to see if they actually end up being happier.
Skep, honestly, I don’t care for faith. It is relatively meaningless to me. However in asking for evidence that faith makes for a better life I don’t need to believe in it. If the evidence shows that belief actually makes people happier, more successful and better then the results speak for themselves.
In short it doesn’t matter to me if an improvement is shown because of faith, divine intervention, or the social network of a church if the result is success. That would show that religion, in general, is a successful lifestyle choice. Similarly the reverse could also be true. I will say that without evidence we are proceeding on a guess and that just isn’t honest or reliable.
Hover, show ME a scientific study on someone who had cancer throughout their body the night before surgery, yet the morning of their surgery it was gone.
Tell me, how my son, who was 13 years of age, was dying in a hospital bed, only had 2 days to live at the most, who when I cried out to God was completely healed 6 hours later to the point that doctors are still scratching their heads.
Call my Mother-in-Law, who has been my mom for 16 years, who is right now on her death bed a liar, because she has seen and vividly described the angels that are around her bed beckoning her to come with them.
Then explain to my husband who prayed for her to be able to see them because that is what she’s wanted her entire 89 years, that what he prayed was of no use.
Tell me my God won’t protect my son, when he goes to fight for our country in Afghanistan, even tho every scripture in His word tells us otherwise.
Tell me that everything I have ever experienced in the super natural is a lie….
Will it make a difference? No. God is real, whether you acknowledge Him or not, I bow my knee to Him now, and acknowledge Him before man. Am I pissed? Yes, will I calm down….eventually.
[...] http://www.friendlychristian.com/index.php/the-survey-says/#respond [...]
Skeptigator said:
Robert Says:
You’ll need much more than faith!
Divine intervention is your only hope!
GOOD LUCK!!!
GO PATRIOTS!!!!
In my experience I know of many people (including myself) who were happy when the shed the shackles of Christianity. Although we have conflicting anecdotal evidence, I think it may point to something else. People are wired differently in regards to what makes them happy. The brain is a complicated thing and it is amazing how it evolves differently in different people.
Some people feel lost in their life and need to have a belief in a god to pull them out of that downward spiral. The comfort of knowing someone is there for them completes their life. For me, Christianity had become a burden and the cognitive dissonance in my brain was causing me to feel lost. I was not a happy person, in fact I was angry. Once I found the light (dark?:))of atheism, I was happier, more productive, and in general a better person.
The following is my response to GG copied from GG’s blog:
Hi GG
I just read the thread you referenced over at Friendly Christian.
For my part I have no doubt whatsoever that these things did happen.
I think where hov and I have the problem is the attribution you are giving to these events.
Spontaneous remissions do happen all the time and doctors are indeed left scratching heir heads. Does that automatically mean that it was indeed a divine intervention of sorts? That’s impossible to prove. Your faith tells you it was. But you can’t prove that it was any more than a doctor could prove it wasn’t
I can’t speak to the motivations or feelings of hov, but for me I am always going to look for naturalistic explanation to events. That’s how I am wired. Is it a failing on my part. Maybe, maybe not.
I am so happy that your son survived despite what the learned doctors told you. Doctors are human they can be wrong. The human body has an amazing ability to heal itself that we still don’t nearly understand.
That said:…
Your perception is that your faith has clearly rewarded you.
Neither hov nor I could make compelling arguments that it was NOT your faith. For my part I wouldn’t even try to do so. It’s not my goal to destroy the faith of believers.
Don’t worry about your anger…. we are all human and we have emotions. When we suppress them and try to hold in them they do much more harm.
I’ll leave you with this thought:
The anger you feel now is the same anger that builds in me when some one of strong faith tells me that my world view is wrong and that the price of that error will be eternal torment in Hell….
When someone says this to me it’s not coming from a place of love…it’s said with a sort glee and satisfaction in a perceived knowlege of my future torment.
That’s not LOVE and I KNOW that’s not the message of Christ.
I will keep your beloved son in my thoughts while he serves our country!
Peace to you always,
Robert
Tom Cruise thinks Scientology works.
I just have to point out that the fact that people’s delusions make them feel better or make different life decisions (either of which could explain the lower suicide rate) does not have anything to do with whether a god exists or not, and even less about whether Christianity (a very broad term by the way) is “true” or “works”.
Just because there might not have been a study done doesn’t mean it isn’t true. Most scientists are too busy trying to prove God false, then anything else.
Adam,
What do you mean by this statement? I’m not aware of any studies with a stated goal to prove god false. Scientists are trying to answer questions about what we don’t know. Some times the findings in these studies conflict with what religions have been teaching, but they aren’t trying, nor can they, to disprove god.
Hi Happy,
“but they aren’t trying, nor can they, to disprove god.”
Then how come when they are completely unable to explain something, it is never an option to give God the credit, or consider Him a possibility?
Gods Gal said:
Well to be fair GG, that’s outside their purview wouldn’t you say?
Most Scientists are after all Naturalists of one form or another and that’s the domain they play in.
When a scientist can’t explain something usually they just go back to the drawing board or to the lab…
If they were to throw their hands up and say: “Oh well i can’t explain this…I guess God did it.” That wouldn’t be very scientific now would it.
Robert
Two reasons come to mind.
1) Throughout history when we haven’t understood something people have attributed it to god. Anything from lightning and floods, to mental illness and allergies have been believed to be god. However, over time science has explained the reasons for these things. So giving God credit has a long history of not standing the test of time as natural explanations are found.
2) Saying “god did it” is not a valid scientific hypotheses because we have no way of measuring god or the influence of god.
Thank you for verifying my point sir rober dear…..I couldn’t have said it better.
oops, I meant Sir Robert…. sigh ;;)
Deb, I take your comment above that implies that I am calling you a liar with some confusion. I hear many individual tales of healing and improvements to peoples lives. I’m certainly not going to dispute anyone’s personal story.
Please believe me when I say that I’m really not trying to disprove God. I don’t think that I’ve expressed my intend well enough here. I’ll try again.
In discussions with various Christians (not all contribute to this site) I have repeatedly been told that by having faith I would see the benefits of it. By believing in God my life would improve and I would be happier and more fulfilled. I’ve also heard anecdotes about healing through faith. I am in no position to deny any of this. My inclination is denial but that is based on emotion and not fact.
It did occur to me that perhaps things might actually be better for Christians. I simply do not know if this is true. I reasoned that if Christians did have better lives than atheists then they would be less stressed, happier, longer lived, healthier, wealthier and generally better off. Maybe a little, maybe a lot. I’m not interested if the cause is an actual God or if it is simply the result of closer ties to the community, a placebo effect or something else. The effect should still be detectable.
My expectation was that perhaps a small effect would be reported or no overall effect at all. I knew of a study that showed that atheists were slightly more likely to commit suicide. OK, maybe another shows that stress related illness in Christians is slightly lower. I honestly don’t know.
What I do know is that an assertion that life is better with religion than without or vise versa is groundless without evidence.
Hov, I’m sorry that I was so fed up last night, and let it get to me. You mentioned on my site that you were simply curious. Curiosity to me means that you are willing to at least be willing to consider our belief as an option. I’ve thought alot about this today and it’s impossible to give you what you want. I’m not saying that to flake out on you, but there is no way that you could see through this computer the effect that walking with the Lord has. You can’t measure and record something as a whole that is so individual. I know what has happened in my life because of Him, and as much as I want to share that with you it’s impossible. I look for God in everything, and find Him. I don’t need to look any farther. Now in talking with you and other atheists, it has helped me to put the walls down and listen to you, and I have gleened alot from you. I’m sorry for my hissy fit….I got way too defensive over something I don’t need to defend. The only way you will ever see the difference in a life with God and be able to compare that difference is to experience it yourself.
Perhaps not but I still think that an overall effect should be detectable as a cumulative result. Well, it clearly is. Suicide rates for Christians are lower than for atheists. I simply wish to see what other effects faith has over all.
Personal experience is a poor benchmark. How would I know that the atheist state of happiness was comparable to my Christian state of happiness? Or the other way round. It’s far too subjective for proper analysis.
I don’t think that you need to defend anything. I’m not attacking your faith. Quite the opposite. You have an opportunity to present evidence that faith works. No evidence doesn’t make you lose, it just means that there is no evidence.
Let me ask one thing. If a Christian had posed this challenge would you have reacted in the same way?
A Christian wouldn’t have posed this challenge….
In the same way you can’t ’scientifically’ prove the benefit of God.
Scientists roam about everyday trying to prove God is false in one way or another.
Example:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-dawkins/why-there-almost-certainl_b_32164.html
Just google it.
Why not? Surely Christians desire validation of their ideas as much as anyone else.
Adam says:
Robert responds:
What Mr. Dawkins says or does, even though we see eye to eye on many matters, is of no consequence whatsoever to me.
Neither I or any other thinking atheist take marching orders from the media anointed ‘atheist pope’.
To be far though, I don’t interpret Mr. Dawkins words as saying that there is no God whatsoever. As i read Mr. Dawkins I get the sense that he is arguing that the God as described in the Judeo-Christian tradition ‘almost certainly does NOT exist’. Given the evidence I would be willing to bet my soul on it!
You shouldn’t interpret his work or that of any other atheist as some sort of ‘proof’ that NO god exists.
An intellectually honest person KNOWS that it is impossible to prove a negative. We need no more prove Gods don’t exist than we need PROVE that unicorns nor leprechauns exist.
It is not we (atheists) who are making a positive claim. Theists make the claim that their patron God exists, so it is incumbent upon them to demonstrate this existence using evidence or sound rational argument. Unfortunately for you the evidence presented is unconvincing and the arguments generally use logical fallac(y)ies.
Robert
Because we live by faith and see our validation in our lives everyday both individually and corporately.
I know at least one Christian who posed it to themself i.e. they asked themself whether Christianity worked or not and started to look for evidence in themself and others whether it did or didn’t work better than not being a Christian.
Now they aren’t a Christian any more.
Robert, Robert, Robert. (:|
Just waking up so heres a cup o jo’ ~o)
Helen, I know another who did the same thing recently and found God to be way bigger and better than they ever dreamed possible.
Let me clarify, we have different challenges in our walk besides trying to disprove the very thing we believe in the most. We don’t need verification of His existence because we have that each day…but we do seek Him more…and actually I have tested some of what I have been told by atheists here, and He just shows Himself bigger….If someone is determined to walk away and have nothing to do with Him, they’ll go. You don’t want to hear His voice, you won’t. The opposite is true also tho…and the people who truly seek Him, find Him.
Gods Gal said
Got my Starbucks ‘Black Eye’ (double shot of espresso in a large cup topped with Verona Blend) right here…
I am awake, bright-eyed and bushy tailed! :d
R
Ahhh…sounds good! I’m about here now….:)
Have a great day!
Gods Gal said:
Robert responds:
It all goes back to what sort of a world we each want to see.
We are all guilty of some form of confirmation bias.
We I was a young boy I had a post-style coat rack in the corner of room. I hung there my bathrobe and any clothes that weren’t dirty enough to be thrown into the hamper. Many nights I would lie in bed and stare at that coat rack and I would see a monster or some other malevolent form. It would scare me so much I would reach over and turn on the light! This would confirm for me that these shapes staring back at me were in my head…or were they?
As an adult I don’t see such apparitions any more because I have convinced myself they don’t exist. Or do they? I remember in the movie ‘Beetlejuice’ one of the characters in the movie was reading a passage from the ‘Handbook for the recently deceased’
I think about that now and then. Do we condition ourselves NOT to see that which is outside our experience?
At the same time, the human mind is VERY powerful and generate all sorts of hallucinations.
How are we to know what is real and what isn’t?
If I concentrate hard enough I can actually smell my nonna’s red sauce or my memere’s perfume. I can find patterns of faces in the dark. These things aren’t really there. What else can psych ourselves into seeing or hearing?
GG, your experience was real to you and it changed your life. What I think doesn’t matter. We both understand that.
Perhaps you are right: I’m not looking for that deep relationship with God so I won’t find it. Maybe that stems from my knowlege and experience that if I look and listen hard enough I could see and hear exactly what I want or need to.
R.
GG, you are talking about specific personal experiences. I don’t doubt that you’ve felt these things or that you have faith. My question remains though: Overall how are people better off with faith. One person’s tale doesn’t matter here as I’m talking about an over all picture. Just as one person falling from a plane at 30,000 ft and surviving isn’t an indicator that I could do the same. Thousands of people fall two feet or less every year and the vast majority survive. This is a fair indicator of the survival rate.
Similarly I have been told that accepting Jesus makes a person more fulfilled in life. I am quite happy to accept that this may be the case for you or Bill or Uncle Tom Cobbley. Is it the case on a larger scale though? If the answer is “Yes” the please show me the proof.
Robert, we know what is real by testing it. If something remains “real” to our perceptions and doesn’t operate differently that expected then we can determine it’s characteristics and understand something about it. It doesn’t matter if this is faith, the consistency of cheese or the effect of the movement of the distant stars on human relationships. Tests performed under identical conditions that yield identical results are facts. Our senses can be fooled by our imaginations so we use artifice to create tools that are not fooled. Your may think you detect the chemical trace (odour) of red sauce because your brain triggers a response to a memory but a chemical detector calibrated to the odour would not be fooled in the same way. You could use a neutral device to verify your feelings.
Hover, and again I can’t. There is no way to show you the proof. I really don’t know how else to say it. I see the proof when I talk to the almost 3000 people in our church and outside. I know the difference of my life before and after Christ, and countless stories of the same. But for your proof, there is none. So i guess the thousands of people who are Christ followers are just a bunch of blind, unenlightened crazy people……peace to ya Hov. :)>-
Well, if you must categorize people in such a way….
-Mohandas K. Gandhi (1869-1948)
I’m clearly asking the impossible. Next time a Christian tells me that I would be better off if I allowed Jesus into my heart I won’t bother asking them how. It seems that while some individuals may experience a benefit there is no overall positive gain in belief. It is logical to assume therefore that for every improvement that a Christian experiences another is similarly disadvantaged. This is what “no net positive result” looks like.
If I am wrong then please show me the net positive result. It is what I’ve been asking for all along.
Hov said:
That was precisely my point!
I was just trying to make it bit more delicately.
That said, it is not always possible to test everything. I am simply allowing for the possibility of things unseen.
R.
Robert, on a slight tangent I was reading an article in New Scientist this week about time. We cannot test for time yet it is inherent to almost everything that we experience.
Having said that I’m not talking about testing for or against an unseen God, merely the effect of believing in him.
No Hov, that’s one mans opinion, it doesn’t count…you can’t use quotes from people anymore because they are just opinions and you’ve said they don’t matter.
So, you did know or you don’t know? And how much would be enough for you? What would a test look like to you that would prove what you are looking for? How about a survey? Electrodes on the head?
Robert: I understand what you are saying, but it’s not like I’m sitting in the living room every day cross-legged chanting until I have some kind of ultimate experiece. It’s also not like anything you would see on TV or in the movies. I had the same experiences growing up, it’s completely different.
Deb, of course opinions matter. It’s just that they can be wrong and in themselves prove nothing.
You found a typo, even the superior typing skills of atheism are no match for the proofreading powers of Christianity. As Stan Lee was fond of saying you win a no-prize.
Well, if you look in the forum link in the original post you will see the sort of study that I am looking for. The one that indicates that Christians are less likely to commit suicide.
I keep saying that I’m not trying to prove a point, instead I wish to gather information. It seems that the information just isn’t available although I find it difficult to believe that no-one would want to correlate the effect of religion on health or wealth or a whole range of other things.
Why would you want that? Are you after frizzy hair?
I understand what you’re looking for…finally… =d> but how do you suggest we go about gathering such information…and how many would be enough? Thousands, millions?
God’s Gal wrote:
But God’s Gal, this is not a fair way to describe how it is for atheists and Christians.
It would be like me saying “I’m open to the evidence that God doesn’t exist, but you aren’t - you bury your head in the sand and pretend he does even though there’s no evidence.” I don’t say things like that about Christians because I don’t think that’s fair or respectful of your experience.
But that’s what I feel you’re doing every time you say that atheists are refusing to listen to God and determined to walk away from him. It’s an unfair way to describe the actual experience of atheists.
How many? A fair representative group, obviously the more the merrier. I’d say at least several hundred to wield statistically appropriate results.
Just for future reference which explanation enabled you to understand what I wanted? It seems to me that I’ve asked for the same thing in a dozen different ways without provided a clear request. Which one was finally clear?
Helen, to me that is exactly what you are doing. I apologize if it sounds offensive, but I do have evidence. So do millions of others. The fact that it is not documented does mean there isn’t any. Putting words in my mouth is unfair as well. I know, because I know that God exists, and has done many things in my life that only He can do. Not, oh my body decided to magically repair itself, or gee don’t know why your son is still alive, but heaven forbid we look at the God possiblity. That’s rediculous for me. You yourself have said that you were once a believer, started seeking other things out and don’t believe anymore. You walk away from God He’ll let you go. He won’t ever force anyone.
Hover: It wasn’t your explanation, it was my frame of mind. To me evidence is there and real….it’s not evidence to you, or a scientific study, so it’s not admissable to you.. That’s fine. So, realizing that there is no way to prove the effects of faith, because you have to have faith to even understand, and you won’t seek out GOd on your own to even see if what we say is true without some kind of documentation, I’m trying now to figure out how to reach these hundreds of Christians, and just ask THEM how faith has changed their lives. But then that probably wouldn’t work either, because I don’t have a PhD or whatever it takes to make it worth anything to you.
I think it all depends on the person. Everyone reacts to situations differently. I think the key difference between athiests and Christians is what each person attributes good and bad causes or effects to. As a pseudo-atheist I try to look at everything from a practical and realistic outlook. Because I don’t think there is some “being” taking care of everything, I look to humans to be responsible for their actions. For this same reason, I look to humans to change the things we don’t like. For me, praying won’t actually change anything and doesn’t make me feel better. Doing something about what I dislike makes me feel better. I find inspiration and good feelings from observing people who are actually doing something worthwile. I can see how being Christian, one would have this inspiration from JC, but I prefer to observe people here and now who are making change. From seeing their results and impact on society, it inspires me to take pride in what I can bring to the table to make a difference. I’ve volunteered for 20 years in various ways, donated money, items, etc. Its very satisfying to know that I, despite my own limitations, can actually do something to change the world. The results of any good or bad deed I do is entirely my doing and I think this outlook instills a feeling of accountablity and self esteem depending on the act. It inspires me to take care of my body to ward off illness, to be nice to others because I take pride in being a nice person, to educate myself to improve my life and to better serve our community and to really value my friends and family. From the outlook that this one chance is all I have, that there isn’t an afterlife, really weighs on my mind. I have this one chance to enjoy myself, to improve the world and to love people with all I have. Everything I do or don’t do is because of something I think and feel. My losses are hefty lessons but my sucesses are even sweeter because no one told me what to do. I observe real people to learn about the world, not just people in books.
Complete free thought and rational moral judgement.
There is no way to corrupt or misinterpret atheism. It requires no Sunday commitment or $.
I would love to see how much change could be made if every Sunday for 1-2 hours, Christians went into their community and actually did something with that time - tutor needy children, work at a soup kitchen, make public gardens, etc. In addition I am absolutely appalled at these huge church compounds I keep seeing. Those things must cost millions. I would be utterly embarrased to be a part of something like that.
In thinking about this topic, reading “The God Delusion” and talking with a pastor I have a few things to point out/question.
As I understand it, doing good deeds is actually a side agenda to being a Christian. I’ve been told that Faith is the most important aspect and it is faith that will lead to salvation. Faith merely means belief in God. To serve God, one would wish to do God’s will (i.e. good deeds, etc) but it is the belief that is most important.
In reading “The God Delusion”, the main argument from atheists regarding Christianity is that the beneficial aspects of religion can be achieved without the actual religion.
The dilema is that Christians are mainly focused on salvation and their Faith, while atheists are focused on the here/now society.
From one perspective, its a moot point to argue that religion is not necessary to improve socity to a Christian. This is because the focus on FAITH and BELIEVING doesn’t necessarily require that one improves society or does good deeds. So arguing back and forth won’t necessarily get anywhere because the focus of each viewpoint is completely different.
This idea leads to my question - that Christianity is actually completely self-serving, focused mostly on a good afterlife and not on improving society.
One positive result of religion (http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/323/7327/1446).
While anyone can calm themselves down in this manner, religions promote it in times of stress. So while I don’t think God is responsible, this is a good example of how a religious lifestyle can improve your life.
And is, I think anyway, the sort of example Hov is looking for.
Sara, I am nothing like you’ve described here….here are some examples…
So do we, I don’t understand why Atheists dont think a Christian feels responsible for their action..
And we don’t??? It’s call missions….
Yup, me too…
Again, yup…..
Uh, ya, me too…..
What do you think we do? I can’t tell you the hundreds of Christians that do these things and more every day in our community. Have you been on a trip where you have seen families living in card board boxes without water and spent a couple of weeks building homes for people in such living conditions? I’m sure by now you have organized a group of people to go down and help the hundreds that need help because of Katrina or the fires in California. Would you like a list of Christian groups who have???? The main reason atheist want to be atheists is so there is no accountability for thier actions and they can take all the credit. Is that better than believing in God? Not to me…sorry Sara, but you really don’t have a concept of what true Christianity is all about.
Thanks Sara, that was just the sort of evidence that is interesting to me. The ritual has a calming effect that is medically beneficial. While you are perfectly correct in stating that it doesn’t require faith to practice this ritual I think you’ll agree that an atheist is unlikely to use rosary prayer as a calming technique.
Ill agree with her there too!
Gods Gal,
are you just lashing out, or is this what you actually think?
No Ash, I’m not lashing, that is really what I get alot of the time. It seems to come up alot as a point.
well, i can see what you’re getting at with the ‘taking all the credit’ bit, coz yes, as i don’t believe in a god, it does mean i am responsible for my own actions - but that works the other way too. i am entirely accountable to myself and the people i care about every time i screw up/speak carelessly/cause harm/whatever. so we’re all accountable (or, IMO, should consider ourselves so), it’s just we have different standards (god, ourselves, etc.) of who we are accountable to.
GG. I understand that we have similar feelings evoked regarding what we see and do, but we divide the credit up differently. This was the point I was trying to make. As for writing about my own happiness and perspective on happiness in life, its only fair for me to chime in. You do and credit God, therefore I can and credit humanity. I think I made this pretty clear in my first three sentences.
“I think it all depends on the person. Everyone reacts to situations differently. I think the key difference between athiests and Christians is what each person attributes good and bad causes or effects to.”
Regarding accountability, you can’t pick and chose what God is responsible for and what humans are responsible for. It doesn’t make any sense and is actually confusing for someone trying to learn more about how Christians think. I’ve read you credit God numerous times but now you are saying that humans are responsible. Where is the line?
“The main reason atheist want to be atheists is so there is no accountability for thier actions and they can take all the credit.”
I would sincerely appreciate your explanation of the above statement. If we don’t have a God, its only logical that we have ourselves to blame and thank for everything - therefore we simply must be accountable. There is no scapegoat Satan for us, causing us to do evil things.
“Is that better than believing in God?” Again, this statement is contradictory and doesn’t help me understand you better. Whats the difference between credit and accountability? Does God get all the credit and all the accountability, or none of it?
As for humanitarian aide, lots of different people from all beliefs offer assistance and money. The non-Christians are usually silent about their beliefs (Hindu, Muslim, Agnostics, etc) which is why their acts aren’t associated with a specific religion. They also make up a percentage of Christian based groups.
Missions, while giving humanitarian aid, have a second goal to establish Christianity. This actually creates conflict between people who believe in the old religion vs. the new religion. Its almost never ONLY about the humanitarian accomplishment.
Regarding my own involvement in saving the world, I’m not about to make a list. I don’t think this topic was intended to be a tit-for-tat war. It was simply a survey.
Sara:
I agree, there was alot of misrepresentation in your comments before of how things really are.
Ash: I understand what you are saying….another things I find confusing about our differences, is you guys are very up front about how ur all different with different views etc. and that seems to be accepted amongst you. Yet, if we’re not all on the same page about everything, it’s seen as some kind of fault…could you give me a little insight on that?
This is probably one of those times where it would be prudent to remain silent. However as you’re not lashing out…
I am told that God is guiding Christinas to make the right choices and Satan is turning them away from good to make bad choices. God is therefore responsible for good deeds and Satan for bad deeds. At least at it’s most simplistic level.
Undoubtedly many missions provide much needed help to people. Our very own Friendly Christian had his own tale about the good that he helped to perform last year. Providing medical, food, educational aid and putting up buildings wasn’t the only aim though. Spreading the message of Jesus was there too.
Now, I can’t say that no religion would mean no missions and neither can you but every single person I know, no matter what their views on religion, gives to charity and does some small thing to help others whenever they can spare the time and resources. Maybe Christians are more generous, it is impossible to tell without evidence.
I don’t believe that people conciously choose to not believe in Gods. I think we choose to question and then reach the conclusion ourselves. I also agree with Ash and Sara on their comments about responsibility except they were more polite than I would be.
It’s difficult to tell without evidence. I think it is more honest.
There are so many different representations of Christianity that it is hard to tell which is the “true” one. Bill seems to be doing a good job of representing his faith though.
God’s Gal wrote:
It’s because we accept the differences between us. But you don’t accept yours - lots of you (plural - meaning you, Christians) say that there’s only one ‘right’ way to believe and all Christians who differ are wrong.
If you don’t accept the differences yourself why would you expect us to?
Hov: You sound like a programmed robot. Your evidence seeking is your downfall and the cause of your limitations.
Helen: Again, your across the board statement couldn’t be further from the truth. People who don’t believe in God should not make matter of fact statements about those that do and vise versa. The more I read of what you guys believe about us, the more it’s apparant you have no idea of who we really are or what we believe.
Hello everyone!
I told hoverfrog that I would check out this thread, so here I am.
Here are some thoughts:
1. Hov, after 61 comments, have you gotten any closer to satisfying your curiosity?
2. You said the suicide rate among the atheists are higher than among the Christians. Where do you get this info? Just curious.
3. To answer your question from my perspective… I don’t know if I see being a Christian as a “benefit.” It’s just a part of who I am. My identity. It’s like asking me what do I benefit from being an Asian? I used to think that being a Christian was something that I had to “do” rather than “be.” I used to think that I my prayers will somehow affect the outcome of things. I used to think that humans are inherently bad and sinful, therefore needing to constantly hang onto Jesus to stay pure. I have recently come to realize that there’s nothing wrong with me to begin with. Jesus wants us to be free. Free from fear, shame and guilt. And I’ve tried to shake him off. I’ve tried to think like an atheist, as I’ve met many whom I’ve come to admire. But he just seems to be a permanent part of who I am. Go figure!
4. Other Christians: you seem to be implying that it is up to us to “choose” to know God or become a Christian. Am I correct? So we are in control? I never did understand that. If it is God’s will, what gives us the power to choose him or reject him?
Here’s food for thought: Jesus is not in Christianity as a religion. Jesus is the Christ. Jesus is the spirit of freedom. But I cannot have true freedom unless I completely let go of the idea of “religion.” I am a Christian, yet I do not subscribe to Christianity. I go to church, yet it is not an obligation. I pray but not for things or people. When I read the Bible, I do it for enjoyment. I only help people if it genuinely comes from the heart (most of the time). I don’t want to miss out on living my life by listening to the false teachings of religious leaders. Oh, and I’ve met some atheists who I think are really Christians at heart but don’t even know it. And I’ve also met many ‘Christians’ who are really atheists/agnostics at heart but will not admit it. But then again, my definition of a Christian is completely unorthodox… oh well.
God’s Gal wrote:
Then why do you make matter of fact statements about us? You have made a number of them in this very conversation. Like the one about atheists not wanting to be accountable.
When you make them about us you back them up by saying “they’re true”. If we make them you say we know nothing about you (although I do because I was a Christian for 16 years), but if we say you know nothing about us you ignore that.
Why are the rules different for you?
The rules aren’t different Helen, we’ve already talked about this stuff over and over and over….Like Sara says, I’m not getting into a he said she said tit for tat, not going anywhere conversation. I don’t have time.
“
So you want to be acountable to God? I don’t think so…my conversation was with Ash anyway. I still don’t agree that you knew the Lord for 16 years….you either were never a Christian, or you still are….
Honestly, friends keep telling me that after months of the same discussion over and over, what’s the point? There are hundreds of people who do want to know the Lord and tons of ministry. Maybe my focus SHOULD be on the people who have a desire to know God and spend all their time trying to disprove His existence…but Bill, you’re one cool dude….so we keep popping in…
I’m gonna go worship the Lord now…. peace!
:)>-
God’s Gal wrote:
You’re entitled to your opinion but you can’t possibly know as much about it as I do.
What is a human but a very sophisticated organic machine? If my downfall come from seeking to understand the world and the people who live on it then I welcome it. It is better than the alternative.
Hi Linda. To be honest less than I thought I would. I’m having difficulty understanding where to resistance is to collating evidence that could potentially support your way of life.
Here ==> http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/161/12/2303
You can see the other links in the forum.
There is nothing wrong with that and I accept that it is who you (the plural you for Christians) are. However I can find data on how long Asians live on average compared with Africans or White Europeans. It doesn’t change anything but it does reveal information about them.
I assume that you mean by action rather than belief?
Thanks for coming over, I hope you stay.
Helen:
If that means turning my back on God and convincing myself He never existed, then you’re right, I never will….and I’m more than ok with that.
The resistance is to the method itself. Why would you want to look for solid ways of evaluating evidence to arrive at conclusions if you don’t form any of your other beliefs that way?
No, I meant you can’t possibly know as much about whether I was a Christian as I do. Your belief about what I was and am contradicts the reality of my life. I am always going to choose reality over someone else’s belief about me, especially when that person barely knows me.
That right there completely sums up the problems in communication we are having, on both sides. I feel like a statistic. You and I are real people with real experiences, and I have a hard time when I say something, and someone says, prove it. It’s the same as calling me a liar. I don’t have to prove it, any more than you would. I’ve always liked it here because I’ve learned so much about people I honestly knew little or nothing about. It’s help me to grow alot. But this new twist is insulting. It’s not my job to prove God’s existence, or prove what I am saying happened….it’s impossible to someone who has no intention of seeking on their own. Ben, you nailed it….your question at the end of comment 68 is exactly why I’m feeling this is wasting time….I hate feeling that way..
God’s Gal wrote:
I feel like you call me a liar everytime you say either I never was a Christian or I still am.
Speaking for myself I don’t need you to ‘prove’ what you say about your own experiences.
God’s Gal, our epistemologies and world-views are divergent enough that our conversing is pretty much a waste of time. No argument there. I stand by my comment, though.
That is how I form my beliefs. I see what works and use it. If something I try doesn’t work then I don’t use it again. If something works for a lot of people then it is worth considering. perhaps not adopting but certainly worth fair consideration. I include religion in this.
Having a belief that isn’t based on evidence (even personal evidence) or at least related to something that works is possibly as close to being clinically insane as you can get. Now as far as people of faith describe it to me they either have some personal experience that leads them to conclude that faith is a “good” ideology or have lived in that ideology for their entire life and it was proven to be workable.
I have not asked you to. Any “proof” that either of us could offer would not be sufficient in the eyes of the other. I have only asked you to show how faith has been an effective way to live. I am deluded if I think I can change your mind about your faith. I feel it would be dishonest not to examine how effective faith is as a way of living when I reject it. That is all I am trying to do.
Hov:”I feel it would be dishonest not to examine how effective faith is as a way of living when I reject it.”
I feel and so have other Christians who know you threw blogdom by personal experience, yet that is not what is satisfactory to you. SO we’re at a loss as to how to prove this to you. I could put out an all call for people of faith, if you told me you would consider it, I would do it in a second, and you would have your hundreds. My faith is based on God’s existence, so I don’t know how to separate the those two. If you have any other suggestions as to what would work for you beyond you yourself examining it, I’m all ears. Any suggestions?
Actually Hov, there is physical evidence, that the people of the Bible existed and events of the Bible happened….to me way back when, that was enough evidence that there was something there. I think picking and choosing from there, saying what is real and what isn’t is what is insane. It’s either real, or it isn’t. You can’t pick and choose to fit your reasoning, if you believe some, you have to responsibly investigate the rest.
This is what drives me nuts about you…..in a good sort of way…
You’re on both sides of the fence, so nothing you say makes sense to me.
I am coming in at the end of this conversation so I hope I am not repeating anything.
From the Christian blogs that I read the critical difference between my experience with religion and their’s is that they say they have a one to one relationship with God. They feel the presence of God. They pray and they feel affirmation for God.
I went to church and sometimes felt great joy in the experience. I never however actually felt the presence of God. I never had that one to one relationship my Christian friends speak of.
Did any of the former believers in God who post here ever actually feel the presence of God. Did you ever believe you had one to one relationship with God?
The day I stop believing in God, and turned to reason and logic, was the day I starting to make a better life for myself.
My Christian friends say they were saved by God. I say I was saved when I stop believing in God.
Proof in the scientific sense would be someone submitting evidence of God’s existence for critical peer review and the peers validating that evidence. This has not happened to my knowledge.
Unless God has made his presence know to you I see no reason to believe he exist.
If God does make his presence know to you how could you deny his existence?
That’s the feeling I got as I was reading through the comments. I do believe you intended for a positive and constructive discussion, which I appreciate. So I will try again to give you a more considered response to your original question:
I’ve been a Christian for about 4 years, and I did not understand the “benefit” of being a Christian until just recently. More than anything, my identity in Christ gives me freedom. Free to be myself — Losing the fear of failing and being less than perfect. My new identity in Christ allows me to give myself permission to love who I am, which, in turn, allows me to love others without judgment. It allows me to accept everyone and everything just as they are and without the pressure of deciding if they’re good or bad. They just are.. God just is.. I just am.. I can leave the cage and fly without the fear of losing him… This is the new revelation that I’ve come to in the past few months.
The “benefit” for me, if you want to call it that, is that I have the freedom to live the hell out of life without fear. “Living” also means accepting the bad with the good and embracing every experience that life has to offer. No right or wrong. Good or bad. Just life, as it was meant to be… Every moment is precious.
And thank you for the psychology link about suicide rates. I have many thoughts about that also, but I’ll stop for now.
GG
“The more I read of what you guys believe about us, the more it’s apparent you have no idea of who we really are or what we believe.”
Actually, you seem to be proving our first impressions more and more.
“Like Sara says, I’m not getting into a he said she said tit for tat, not going anywhere conversation. I don’t have time.”
I think you need to read over your own posts or something. Thus far, it looks like you take great pride in putting others down. This may be a heated discussion and we are all making potentially offensive statements about religion and are generalizing but you seem to focus only on condescending adjectives aimed at each person individually – and then end your lashings with a smiley face and peace?? I think this is part of the reason your conversations don’t seem to go anywhere useful.
Linda
Thank you for your detailed post and for sharing your version of Christianity. I found #3, 4 and your last statement of #62 particularly interesting. I’m actually a pseudo-atheist but have been posting from an atheist perspective because that is what I most relate to. However, my agnostic side was really warmed by your statements. I honestly believe that your version of Christianity is what it was intended to be. Your post #77 sounds a lot like what Buddhism tries to accomplish but you found your peace through a difference source. I have similar feelings but they aren’t from a religion. Your description was beautiful.
Hov:
While more information arises, I hope you keep in mind that not much information has been collected about atheists as a group. While we may not have rosaries, lots of us go to yoga. Studies can be greatly skewed because of this. (http://atheism.about.com/b/2005/04/02/whats-wrong-with-non-religious-teens.htm)
As for your survey, maybe categorizing it a bit would help instead of an overall “benefit” (like health, salary, etc. separately) For some reason only the emotional impact is being addressed/defended but I know you are looking for more than that. I don’t think emotional impact can be measured and compared between people. I’m not sure why comments haven’t branched out despite your many versions of asking the question and patient explanations.
Ed.
I’m exposing myself a bit here, but I can relate to the experience of feeling God, only I don’t believe in the Christian God (or an religious God). My feelings are completely based on science and the explanation just doesn’t belong here. However, I do feel like I have a one-on one relationship with my own feelings, I guess “spiritual” would be the word. I would be pretty upset if someone didn’t believe how I felt about something and I understand some people are lashing out about theirs. My actions however are completely governed by logic and the results of what I do and don’t do are measurable. I don’t think people’s relationships with their feelings are actually in question and I don’t know why Hov’s point about that hasn’t been clear to everyone by now (directed to the thread in general, not to you).
I found an article that references two studies that showed advantages to those who attended religious services. I did not do enough research to be able to say that this “proves” the benefits of religious life. I am guessing that the studies were peer reviewed.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/401091.stm
“A large US study found that religious folk had lower blood pressure, less depression and anxiety, stronger immune systems and generally cost the health-care system less than people who were less involved in religion.
The research looked at 4,000 old people from North Carolina, and found that of the 1,177 who died during a six-year period, 22.9% were frequent church attenders, compared with 37.4 who were infrequent attenders.
Similar results were produced by the University of California at Berkeley in a study of some 5,000 people aged 21 to 65.
Those who attended religious services at least once a week had a 23% lower risk of dying over the 28 years on which the research was based.
Dr Harold Koenig, from the Duke University Medical Center, said: “Participating in religious services is associated with significant health benefits in elderly people, even when you take into account the fact the religious people tend to start out with better health practices and more social support.”
1) I have supplied a link to Dr. Koenig’s study, the cost of the full text is $35.96 so this is as far as my research goes.
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/routledg/cmrt/1999/00000004/00000002/art00006
This paper reviews the existing research on mortality among members of specific religious faiths in comparison with the general population and examines the methods used to ascertain and categorize religious affiliation in mortality research. Having obtained these studies by using standard literature retrieval methods, we then noted the methods used in each of these studies to ascertain and categorize religious affiliation. We found that mortality researchers only rarely examined religious affiliation. When they have done so, they have tended to use religious taxonomies that do not adequately capture religious diversity, and too frequently have ascertained subjects’ religious affiliation exclusively by inferring it from subjects’ cemetery of burial or funeral home. Given the recently observed links between religion and physical health and longevity, we recommend that mortality researchers include more adequate measurements of religion in future studies.
2)A link to the UC at Berkeley. I tried to find the study referenced above but was not successful.
http://www.berkeley.edu/research/
i wouldn’t characterise our differences as a fault, more as…differences (albeit vast, huge ones!). i think the problem with Hover’s original question and your responses are that Hover was asking if there’s any measurable effect of a christian belief. your responses are that yes, belief in god has affected your life in a very positive way - but, it is something that makes you feel complete, secure and happy, and these are not things that can be measured in a statistical form. is this right? in which case, no, you cannot answer Hover in the form that he was originally asking. this does not mean he, or i, are questioning your faith, or what it does for you.
regarding personal experience, it is not my place to question what you have experienced or how you choose to interpret it, just understand that if the same things happened to me, i would choose to interpret them in a different way. i actually think personal experience is an acceptable form of evidence, but only for the individual involved - it cannot be used as ‘good evidence’ to persuade anyone else. i think this is also why Helen finds your comments about her experiences insulting - she is not insisting you take this as evidence for your beliefs being wrong, she is just reporting her personal experience. similarly, i imagine you would feel insulted if i were to insist that your mother-in-law never saw angels (and therefore implied she was a liar). i can believe she did, although if it was me, i would have given the experience a different explanation.
although we explain our worlds and experiences with different criteria, and we will likely never agree on our interpretations, i do appreciate you (and Bill, Tam, Darla, Linda, etc.) taking the time to explain your points of view on such things. and, because i feel it helps me appreciate a world-view that i don’t believe i’ll ever share, i don’t think these convos are a waste of time…for me anyhow.
to be more precise, all that atheists have in common is a lack of belief in god/s, so it’s obvious that any other views will be greatly varied. christianity is often presented as an all encompassing set of views, and as outsiders, it’s often confusing to actually talk to christians and realise they don’t agree on everything (be that scripture, ideas of god, ethics + morals, etc.). sometimes those differences are resented, and so seen as a fault, because it means we can’t make blanket statements about why we think an idea is wrong, when that idea is not shared by all. i’m trying to get over that!
:d
God’s Gal do you not see that you do the same things to atheists which you hate when they do them to you?
I try to be respectful but I am very fed up with being called a liar when I say what I know is true about me. I have never called you a liar. I have never said “No, God did NOT do those things for you” but you have called me a liar saying “Either you were NOT a Christian - or you ARE a Christian now”.
Ash: Thank you for putting all of that into perspective…there does reach a point as a believer when you have to say, there’s no way to show the non-believer what we are talking about or feel while in the presence of God. Your reasoning in perfect why I can’t relate to what Hov is asking…so it’s time to let that go and move on.
i couldn’t agree more, and again thank you.
Helen: If you do truly understand the way a Christian thinks, you would know that I say that based on my belief system of Christianity. I haven’t called you a liar, I simply don’t believe there are other options. There is a difference. Same as being told that my experiences have no valid proof, and God can’t be an option as to why those things happened. I know what it’s like to be fed up, but it’s not my job to make someone believe the way I do, just to share my experiences. I know where they came from and again this entire conversation wasn’t even with you to begin with.
Thanks for your response, God’s Gal.
Ash- you said that very beautifully! Thank you!
I do not think either that sharing my point of view is a waste of time. I did find interesting that “the only thing atheists have in common is disbelief in God”, I find this interesting because the most in common thing most Christians have is their belief in God. We are all so different and diverisified. And we at times fall into the same things of unbelief of what our God can do..maybe this is our common ground.
GG- you rock! I love your honesty in who you are, and what you believe. Honesty is a quality that is rare anymore, and totally zone in on it!
Standing firm in our individual belief systems is a good place to be, otherwise we are tossed about on the sea of life always searching and never finding. Love you girl!
To do a study we would need to identify what in the environment is unique to a Christian life style compared any other. What are the things that Christian do in their daily life that are unique?
What makes going to a church different from going to other public gatherings? The only thing I can think of in my experience is the architecture of the building, the people I was with, the words spoken and sung. The only difference between what I experienced and what my Christian friends say they experienced is they say they feel the presence of God. Who can that be defined or quantified?
What makes saying prayers while using rosary beads different from fingering a neckless that belonged to a loved one and thinking of the time you spent with them? Both will affect your heart rate and blood pressure.
What makes a prayer different from a mantra? Does it make any difference what words you speak as long as you speak with the same degree of feeling?
What is unique about spiritual behavior as compared to other types of behavior?
The more I read the blogs of my Christian friends the more I see that I have in commmon with them. The primary difference I see is they say they can feel the presence of God.
Arrgh! I can’t spell and ain’t got no grammar.
The line at the end of the second paragraph in my prior post should be:
“How can that be defined or quantified.
I wasn’t try to speak to owls.
and there’s another reason to talk to you guys…often you make me feel this
and do this :d !
I love
and :d but I also love =))
(think I have emoticon issues and maybe need some help)
I agree.
Ed, proof off God’s existence or lack thereof isn’t how I had hoped that this would go. I don’t need proof of God to see the effects that religion and religious faith has on the world. You can see fanatics flying planes into buildings, homosexuals persecuted for being who they are, people voting for leaders based on which church they go to. You also see people comforted when a loved one dies, people given the confidence to go on through difficult times and a support system to aid the needy. None of these require a shred of proof, simply belief.
All I wanted to know was if anyone had made a study to see if and how faith effects measurable aspects of living. For example suicide rate, life expectancy, mental illness, etc. My assumption is that some things would be different but overall there would be a small difference. I still don’t know one way or the other but the surveys in the forum post show much larger effects than I imagined.
Linda, by all means continue the discussion with regard to the lower suicide rates. The forum is a good place for that although less accessible.
Thanks Ed, I’ve added those links to the forum post.
Ash, your comments on the idea for this are exactly what I meant but failed to say. Thanks. However I believe that a cumulative effect should show that faith leads to better health generally (for example) if it helps people to reduce stress and provides better support when someone of faith is ill. Also I hear individuals talk about healings where a disease has been eradicated through faith. I’m not going to dispute that but I should be able to see a statistical shift in that religious people will suffer from or die less often from disease that people without faith.
@ Adam,
Not that you will see this as “life happened” and I’ve been away for a few days. You quote the Dawkins piece as trying to prove there is no god. This article is an opinion/editorial type of article. There is now scientific study he is undertaking to disprove god. I was talking about scientific studies and you were talking about scientists. I think this was our miscommunication.
hoverfrog,
I really don’t understand the forum. Why the forum when you already have discussions here that I can barely keep up with?? Since I’m pretty new to this on-line thing (I didn’t even know what a blog was five months ago), it’s all very overwhelming.
Anyway, here are some basic thoughts I’ve had regarding the suicide rates:
I don’t know if it’s necessarily the belief in God or having a religious mindset that makes people happier or better adjusted to life. From my personal experience and from observing others very closely, I have found that having a support system with whom I can identify is the most crucial element of my psychological and emotional well-being.
When one belongs to a religious fellowship and spends a lot of time with the group, it becomes a place one can go for friendship, comfort, and encouragement. They develop relationships and bonds with each other. In a religious setting, at least in Christianity, people are more inclined to welcome those who are lonely and rejected by other groups. Even if it is not completely genuine, Christians do their best to follow Jesus’ teachings.
If there is a discrepancy between the suicide rates among the religious and non-religious, I would have to guess this is the reason. I would have to look further and see if the non-religious people in question are plugged into some other group where they feel they can fit in and be a part of.
Linda, you’re practically a Luddite. Bless.
Your observations on suicide rates may well be right. I had initially explained it slightly differently to myself though….that internal dialog thing is great….
I saw it as atheists lacking the fear of divine punishment that could give a potential suicide one additional reason not to go through with it.
To be honest though I like your explanation better even if the support network doesn’t actually require any faith or religion. I too would like to see further study done.