What Doesn’t Work
I’ve recently finished Hemant’s book I Sold My Soul on eBay. He particularly looks at what does and doesn’t work in attracting people to church.
I think that’s the first thing that’s wrong with the idea: Attracting people to church. Shouldn’t people want to come to church of their own volition. Do you need to advertise? Should you advertise or are you going to attract people who are insincere in their worship? If you need to advertise the message then maybe the message isn’t reaching people.
For me, faith should be personal. A strongly held personal conviction of some inner truth. Of course a person who holds to a deep faith will feel enlightened and wish to share that enlightenment with others, to raise them up to the same standard. The very nature of a personal conviction though is that it is different for everyone. Your idea of God differs from your neighbour’s idea of God.
To me anyone trying to share their idea of faith is about as effective as a stranger phoning me up trying to sell me car insurance. I walk and get the train, I don’t need car insurance and I don’t care how cheap it is or how many bells and whistles it has. I don’t care if it comes with a free doohicky and how the hell did they get my number and, by the way, I want to talk to your supervisor. It is ineffective advertising that turns people away.
If I want to explore religion then there are a dozen churches within walking distance of my house who advertise various faiths. I can turn up and ask questions if I want to. Any form of advertising turns me off and makes it less likely that I will choose to listen to your message, not more likely.
What doesn’t work? Selling Jesus. That doesn’t work.
I’ll tell you what works best. Getting out there and doing some good. Feeding the hungry, offer shelter and warmth, being a friend to people who need it. If they ask what your motivation is for doing good then tell them.
That would be the most effective way to get me to church. Show me the benefits, pique my interest and let me explore.
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76 Responses for "What Doesn’t Work"
So true. Barring any divine revelations, I don’t think I’ll be becoming a Christian any time soon, but I can definitely say that I am absolutely repulsed by anyone trying to sell me their religion. I have far more respect for those who actually try to help people here in the physical world than those who’s main concern is “saving souls.”
Don’t Waste Your Life:
Listen to John Piper’s take here.
I agree with this post completely, but many churches nowadays do not, as seen by the fact that they have marketing departments!
I’m actually a firm believer in church marketing. As long as I’m not taking away/shying away from the truths of the scriptures, I say go for it!
I think it’s important for a church to make Jesus and his church look attractive as he/it does in the bible.
Often times we see churches/pastors teaching about a sissy Jesus who holds lambs and combs his brown, feathered (Panteen??) hair. That’s nothing like the Jesus that I read about!
I think it’s important to teach the scriptures are they are: real, relevant, exciting, adventurous, and life changing. Often times we see a very boring, dull, and dry version taught. We have the greatest story ever told. I think it’s an injustice to the faith to tell it any other way the EXCELLENT: the best you can do.
I think it’s important for a church to meet people where they are. If the church doesn’t attract genuine worshipers: great! If it attracts non-believers: even better! A big problem with many churches, as many atheists have argued, is that they close their doors and essentially become an exclusive club.
I agree. But can’t I do that AND make Jesus and the gospel attractive too, so when people do come to my church they’re getting nothing but excellence?
I believe that religion will continue to fracture into diverse and arguing factions unless they abandon the idea of running themselves as a business. Advertising is a method of achieving higher sales and it is different from sharing something.
When I have a good idea (or at least one I consider to be good) I talk about it, I discuss it and debate it. I do this to see if the idea is as good as I think it is or whether I’m just inflating it. If my good idea is adopted by others then I feel happy that I’ve shared it. That sense of satisfaction and pride is my only gain.
When I sell something to someone I am trying to get my idea to fit a need and even to create a perception of a need in order to sell my product. If I buy into something that I later discover to be pretty useless I’m going to get angry at the seller and the product and slate it. The message and the good idea will be lost because it was pitched rather than shared.
This is a different thing from making your church a welcoming and inviting place to visit. A home away from home. That is what you have after you’ve got them to come through the door. Making the clubhouse pretty so that people who do come in will feel comfortable. This is what you want to keep people at church, not to attract them to church.
I maintain that sharing is a more effective and honest method of getting your message across than advertising or selling it to someone. I don’t even mean sharing the message by talking about it or proselytizing but just offering something of yourself in keeping with the message that you wish to share.
For example, I’m a vegetarian and I enjoy cooking. When I discover a new recipe or a method of cooking that I’ve not used before I cook a meal for my family and sometimes for my friends and share it with them. I don’t sell it as a vegetarian meal but share a meal that happens to be vegetarian. If they enjoy it and it expands their repertoire of culinary delights then I’ve make vegetarianism slightly more acceptable as a lifestyle for them. Even if that was not my intention.
Does that make sense at all?
What hoverfrog said.
Great post hf.
Bill wrote:
Ummmm, like when? Which church on which date? Do you have a URL?
No offense intended: I’m wary of these generalized assertions…I like to see evidence
Anyway Bill, if what you’re saying is, let’s undo the wrong portrayals and move to a more accurate portrayal which also makes Christianity more attractive - that makes sense.
But I agree with hf that anything which feels like a sales pitch is not going to impress people who aren’t Christians anymore than any other sales pitches which make them roll their eyes and which they ignore.
No offense taken
A simple Google search is a good place to begin. I’ll write more later. It’s date night!
I think the whole “attracting people to church” thing is sometimes about having people understand the gospel in their own terms. Not necessarily making it flashy but putting it in a way for people to understand. I mean if I wear to teach science in English to people who speak on Spanish, I would not be very effective now would I?
Kristina, you just did it.
“The gospel” is definitely Christian jargon. I agree, most Christians speak in so much jargon, that anyone who hasn’t been indoctrinated into the subculture really can’t understand what is being said.
Of course, this is a Christian blog, so it’s to be expected that jargon will be used, as it is in church. But it doesn’t foster open communication with outsiders.
hoverFrog- good article, and I agree with much of it. As a Christian, I get queasy from the assembly-line mentality of many mainstream churches; trying to seduce and woo visitors into the seats is silly and counter productive. Many christians would be well served to read and reflect on your post.
But I would like to add something. You seem to want things on your terms. I am not trying to discourage you from having your own set of questions and seeking answers- by all means- do that (as I continue to do. I am both a Christian and a skeptic). But Christianity is not about another set of niceties, or community, or appearance or practical application- it is not quaint restaurant #347 with a cute neon sign out front, that you discover and want to share with your friends. It is about the sole redemptive power of Christ for those who want forgiveness and are compelled by His message. The other things related to the church are completely secondary, or worse- wasted time.
So you have to ask yourself- are you already righteous, or do you want forgiveness? Isn’t it really one of the two? We are either “well enough” on our own, or we seek help and healing. If you don’t want the latter, than no correction by the church is going to give you an incentive to attend. Or at least not a lasting incentive.
Christ said that he came to save the fallen and that the righteous will save themselves (a very clever comment from Jesus, I might add). All of this talk about how the church conducts itself is important, but is again- not core. What matters is your intellectual and emotional response to the words of Christ, and you don’t need four walls and some stain-glass windows to examine that. What I am urging is that you not concern yourself with how you are lead through the front door because the front door doesn’t save anyone- it merely points the way.
Let me save you some time- the church is full of broken people doing stupid things. I’ve seen it myself all of my life, and have been that stupid, broken person too. This is not worth focusing on- because while Christ saves, he does not remove freewill and temptation that EVERYONE including Christians struggle with. Those broken, silly church folk would hopefully admit to you that, despite their errors and intellectual blind spots- they worship God and not themselves. For those Christians that do worship themselves, let me apologize on their behalf.
Church is virtually worthless and a real hampster wheel unless you desire (as I and many others do) to be forgiven and restored (made acceptable before God) in Christ, and to grow in relationship with Him while learning what it means to serve and love your enemies as well as your friends.
Your example of vegetarian meals doesn’t work entirely. Vegetarians are a sort of in-crowd, a preference, an option. I am not discounting that i can have benefits. But it is not, nor does it claim to be- an urgent truth and a saving one at that. Christ spoke of His atonement as an urgent truth, and the irony there is- God extends patience and freewill to all of us so that we can explore this life and question.
Please don’t read this and think I am trying to challenge the core of your post because I am not. What you wrote was very true. I want only to refocus the issue a bit so that these sideline issues don’t stay in the spotlight while other important matters go overlooked.
I saw your site and you are welcome to believe as you will. My point is not to criticize you but to instead ask “would you really run into church if only some surface matters were adjusted to your liking?” The point is- there might be other reasons for why you choose to believe as you do.
-ian
brokentelegraph.wordpress.com
Church growth is not defined by the amount of people who walk through a door into a building on Sunday. Church growth is defined by the amount of Christians who are growing in holiness.
Christ called us to “GO” and make disciples. He didn’t call us to set up shop, create a unmatched marketing ploy and have people “COME” to us. We are missing the mark if we expect some “top-notch” marketing strategy to bring people to the understanding of their need for a Savior.
That is done by how we live our lives the six other days of the week, and by how we love others in the same way that Christ loved us. Giving God the glory in all that we do and boasting only in the cross of Jesus Christ.
Oh, and….
writerdd:
The Gospel is so much more than Christian ‘jargon’…
“The gospel is the good news of our final and full enjoyment of the glory of God in the face of Christ. That this enjoyment had to be purchased for sinners at the cost of Christ’s life makes his glory shine all the more brightly. And that this enjoyment is a free and unmerited gift makes it shine more brightly still. But the price Jesus paid for the gift and the unmerited freedom of the gift are not the gift. The gift is Christ himself as the glorious image of God—seen and savored with everlasting joy.”
“God is the Gospel” written by Pastor John Piper
http://www.desiringgod.org/media/pdf/books_bgg/books_bgg.pdf
But Bill, I don’t want to go look for the evidence myself - I want you to provide the evidence since you said it. I’m just trying to encourage you to be rigorous! (After date night) Enjoy date night!
@ writerdd
Dang it!
I did, didn’t I?
Yes and no. Forgiveness for what and from whom? Real forgiveness comes from within.
Forgive me for be amused by this but I view Christianity in exactly this way. Perhaps you view Christianity as a ubiquitous way of life, that’s fine, but what need is there of temples and churches at all?
Ian wrote:
Ian I think you are narrowing down Christianity more than Jesus did.
His final commands according to the gospels were (John’s gospel) 1) Love one another - isn’t this about community? and (Matthew) 2) Teach people to be my disciples (followers). Which is all about how people live.
hf is right to care about whether a church community is involved in making the world a better place in practical ways.
…when I say hf is ‘right’ I mean, he’s only echoing what the Bible itself says.
Plus I agree with him that it’s important
Jason,
You make my point. I didn’t mean that the gospel itself is jargon (although the way it is expressed usually is full of jargon), but that the term “THE GOSPEL” is jargon. If you’re not an insider you have no frakking idea what those words mean. Gospel not even an English word that most people are familiar with.
Personally, I think church is just a club for people with similar values to go to so they don’t feel alone.
More examples of jargon:
What? I have to sit in front of a big picture of Jesus’s face?
What is the glory of God anyway? That doesn’t mean anything to me. What is “glory”? Another word that is very uncommon in English outside of religious circles.
Oh, I get it! Jesus is glowing like a firefly. So what? What does that do for me? So my light bulbs are glorious because they glow too?
What’s a sinner?
Who had to purchase enjoyment for me? And what does this have to do with the previous sentences? You didn’t say anything about enjoyment before this. And I already enjoy my life and I didn’t buy anything from Jesus.
What are you talking about? You just said I had to buy it. And what’s all this about shining? The sun shines. So if I go outside on a nice day is that the same thing?
More of the same. Paying for a gift. Glory and glowing. Jesus is a painting of God? My head hurts.
This is all jargon. It only means something to insiders who already know what the codewords mean.
BTW, I’m not trying to critique the Christian message here, just the way it is presented. Scientists fall into the same problems while trying to communicate to the general public. They use all kinds of code words and terms that seem obvious to them, but their audience is bemused and has no idea what they are trying to say because they have no background in the lingo/jargon of science of in the basic concepts being discussed. Christians do this all the time as well, and you’ll never reach the people you’re trying to reach while you are using words that sound like greek to them. You have to break it down into contemporary language and use words that are in modern usage outside of the Christian subculture. The only reason I have any idea what you really meant in that previous “gospel” example is because I was raised in evangelical churches.
I do think that you have a point. Jargon is a great way for people who understand the same concepts to communicate, it is efficient and allows layers of meaning to be shared quickly. You do have to learn it though. If I were to start talking about TCP/IP or subnet masking the majority of people would give me that glazed look that I’m so used to. To me and people in my profession they are important terms.
Jargon isn’t an inclusive way to speak as it speaks only to the “in” crowd. Most people will get by but can be turned away by the complex use of exclusive language.
For what it’s worth, that passage by John Piper is in a book that probably was written for insiders who know the jargon.
hf and writerdd, I’m with you - it doesn’t make sense to use words people don’t understand when you’re trying to communicate with them.
Or words you ascribe a different meaning to than they do - which also happens when some Christians talk with people who aren’t Christians. That’s even more confusing because you know whether you understand a word. It’s harder to know whether a word you think you know is being given a different meaning by the other person. Or different value-judgment. Among Christians I often hear ‘tolerance’, ‘acceptance’ and ‘pride’ are bad. Whereas other people generally think they’re good. For example.
HoverFrog- thanks for the response. We are saying much of the same thing, you are correct. the building is irrelevant. My only point is that joining a church to do the (admittedly good) things merely makes it like any other club. There are many places with different worldviews achieving good things on earth. you had good advice on how the church should adjust its outreach, and I am not disputing that in any way.
Yes we should forgive ourselves- great point, but atonement- being reconciled with God- we don’t generate that from inside we receive it from Christ (if you believe His claims). There is a difference between “I’m moving on from my own mistakes and I’ve dealt with them,” and “I see in myself a fundemental brokenness and need for change, help, salvation and truth that only Christ can provide.” Whether you agree with that second quote or not, I’m sure you see the distinction.
We agree that churches can be like vegetarians if it’s only about what it does for you and others- benefits, support, etc. It can be in that way- successful or fail at doing that good, just like any number of organizations.
Helen- good point. Perhaps I discounted the practicality of Christianity too much in my attempt to distinguish good works from Christ’s atonement. I agree with your post, but continue to emphasize that if we cut out the head of the church (Christ) and just behave like any non profit org- than the core truth is lost. Is Christianity not about a truth that changes behavior? Your point about going and making desciples- yes there is a fundemental service to being one, but it is powered by being first effected by Christ, and the way that a relationship with Him changes the way you see your role in the world. He didn’t say “I’ve laid down some benign but sound principles, now go and gather employees, and apply your good works in a truthless vacuum.” We point to christ through our service AND our reasoning and encouragement towards Christ (book of Isaiah; the apostle paul urged us to that). That is a balance and I’m not going to be the one to say how much of both we should do. I only wanted to introduce the need for that balance with a priority on Christ and works that follow from there.
Both of you- thanks for your comments. Again hoverFrog- don’t let my comments take away from your post. It was said well.
writterdd:
“Personally, I think church is just a club for people with similar values to go to so they don’t feel alone.”
Why couldn’t you say that about anything else? I look at a nutrition guide on the back of a bag of chips. I don’t know what any of it means, so is it just jargon? What’s saturated fat got to do with me anyway?
Hey, that’s a pretty fun game to play…Let’s break down the song “Twinkle Twinkle Little Star”?
Up above the world so high? Like a diamond in the sky??? What does all that jargon mean? Are stars only above the world, are stars made out of diamonds? What is going on here…I’m so confused…
The point is simple. If I’m speeding through a school zone and get pulled over by a police officer, do I get to use the excuse that I just don’t understand what a “Speed Limit” really is? It doesn’t make sense to me, so I’m not accountable for it. No…I broke the law and am gonna pay the price for it.
The fact that some people don’t understand the Gospel does not make it any less relevant, significant, or important for them. There are plenty of things that we don’t understand fully in life. Does that just mean we throw in the towel and say, Gosh that’s just a bunch of jargon? I wonder how that would’ve played out through grade school…
”Sorry Ms. Case I just don’t understand this math stuff, it’s just a bunch of numbers and jargon to me…Something that only geeks and math wizards can understand…You know, it’s just something they created to make them selves feel important and accepted.”
That’s not how life works. We have functioning brains that are programmed for curiosity and the desire to know the truth. We each have the opportunity to pursue what we want to in life, but that doesn’t make TRUTH relative. Truth is absolute, and the truth is that scriptures tell us that one day every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. You can do what you want to with your life until then, but the point remains the same…If the Bible is true, then the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the most relevant and pertinent thing in the world.
The Gospel is not jargon…It is mankind’s only hope for salvation!
Take it, or leave it…The choice is yours…
Jason, the thing is there has to be a reason for a person to want to learn a specific jargon. If there’s no motivation, there’s no learning. And to get them motivated, you have to speak in words that they already understand.
Personally, I’m fine if Christians continue to use jargon and fail at communication because I find evangelism incredibly distasteful anyway. So keep up the jargon-laden witnessing if you want. You will lose more and more people as fewer and fewer people are raised understanding the language of the Bible and the Christian subculture.
And your examples are not jargon, they are metaphors and similes, not code words that include huge complicated concepts that go unexplained. The human mind naturally understands figures of speech. Metaphor is the basis of all language.
I choose to leave it. (Actually, I didn’t choose to leave it, I would never have chosen to stop believing in God, but after I learned more and more about human cognition and the brain, cosmology and astronomy, and biology, I realized that the way the universe really works was in direct opposition to my Biblical world view and I could no longer hold onto a faith that was not supported by the evidence before my eyes.)
“…I realized that the way the universe really works was in direct opposition to my Biblical world view and I could no longer hold onto a faith that was not supported by the evidence before my eyes”
- What is your evidence for your existence?
- How about the existence of all creation?
- What is your evidence for your conscience?
- What do you put your faith in?
Jason, I thought followers of Jesus were called to serve others.
Are you not interested in that role?
When you share a message you believe is life or death and someone says to you “I can’t understand you” wouldn’t a servant’s response be “Ok, I will try to use words you understand better”?
Your response seems like that of a servant who says “the food is in the fridge. Go cook your OWN dinner if you’re hungry.” That wouldn’t be appropriate, would it?
hi Helen- I responded to you in my second comment, but it might be lost in the text as I have no idea how you guys do the quote blocks.
-ian
Helen:
I disagree…My response is not a cook your own dinner if you hungry approach, but rather a “Meals on Wheels” approach.
Dinner is served. I’d love to help you chew on it, but I’m not going to sacrifice substance in order to make it more appealing to you or easier to digest. When you’re dealing with the Word of God, who gets to determine what stays and what goes? I know I’m not willing to make that call.
Like mamma always said, eat your vegetables. Even though they may not look appealing to me compared to a cheeseburger or a hotdog, the reality is they are good for me and my body needs them as well.
The Gospel may not look appealing to the unsaved person, but it is exactly what they need to hear. Not a kinder-gentler version that may take away the significance and importance of the message, but the version that was taught by Jesus; the kind that is going to bring me to a place where I understand not only the love that God has for me, but also my sinfulness and my need for a Savior.
Side note: The Holy Spirit helps us understand the scripture and what all the “jargon” truly means. No one understands scripture without the help of God. Our eyes are veiled to the truth and beauty of the Gospel and without the help of the Holy Spirit it is “jargon” to anyone who tries to understand its message.
I believe the main reason there is so much confusion with/inside/around/throughout Christianity today is because EVERYONE is trying so hard to put their own spin on it. There might be an honest kind-hearted reason why people try and do this, but the reality is, people are being bombarded with all kinds of Gospels and they become confused…The devil uses that confusion to frustrate the person and they are then turned off to the entire Gospel. If we stop trying to glamour up the word of God and simply allow the scriptures to stand on their own then maybe [just maybe] we can avoid making Christianity anymore “confusing” than it already is for some people. Besides, I want the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not the Gospel according to so-and-so!!!
So to answer your question, I think it is best to “bring someone the meal” and then when/if they have questions we can go to the fridge together and see what there is inside to chew on!
For His Glory,
Jason
The blockquote button is gone…
— Jason wrote:
“Church growth is defined by the amount of Christians who are growing in holiness.”
— end of quote —
Alright, I have to share this: When I first read that, I saw it as
“Church growth is defined by the amount of Christians who are growling in holiness.”
And immediately I got a mental picture of a bunch of people sitting in pews, growling in unison… and holiness.
I nearly spewed my tea at the screen laughing.
I’m not going to answer these here, Jason, because I feel like that would be getting into a debate about the existence of God and I am not here to de-convert anyone and I don’t want to infringe on Bill’s hospitality. But I will say that one bit of evidence for my existence is the fact that I am sitting here right now writing this post.
I write about the types of questions you are asking on Skepchick from time to time, and if you’re really interested feel free to read my posts on that blog.
It wasn’t working correctly in Internet Explorer (darn Microsoft!). I’m working on a new solution.
For now, you can still use the HTML tags, they’ll just have to be typed manually.
I agree and it really doesn’t work. Instead why not let the gospel (the message) speak for itself and demonstrate it’s effectiveness through your own actions. Your compassion and works then become an example that is much more effective than “spin”.
hoverFrog:
I almost agree with you
…But the only exception is that the Gospel doesn’t speak for itself and we [Christians] are called to share our faith through our words as well as our actions!
Rom. 10:14
Good insight though bud!
HoverFrog, we (and I’m sure a lot of Christians) disagree on what the gospel is.
I do agree with you that as a Christian I should let my actions speak. However, it’s only of secondary importance. I’m not sure if this was ever a fad in England but in the US some Christians wore a WWJD (what would Jesus do?) bacelet. I don’t have anything against it in particular, but I think it takes the focus off of the actual gospel message.
I’ll spare you the Bible verses, but the Bible gives example after example of someone trying to do their best, to be sin free, but they almost always fail, even when it comes to simple things. Jesus - God made man - did come to earth to show us how to be more moral. However, this is only a secondary issue. His purpose was to be our Savior. To take our place and to live the perfect life and die the innocent death that we aren’t capable of living. To say that living in positive manner is the crux of the gospel message, is actually a complete contradiction. The gospel message is the fact that “God so loved the World that he gave His one and only Son” - and nothing else.
So I’m all for being compassionate. And good works are by their nature always a good thing. We have no disagreement here. However, if Jesus isn’t mentioned the Christ aspect is taken out of Christianity, and to me that’s a false Christianity. No one comes to believe in Jesus by seeing someone help a little old lady across the street (a very good thing none-the-less). At some time Christ crucified has to be mentioned.
So to emphasize the gospel message is Jesus’ actions and not ours. I don’t see it as a message that has to be “spun” but shared. I haven’t looked at any of your articles but it would be interesting to hear your distinction between spinning something and sharing something. If I went into a conversation hoping to share the gospel message I’d be well meaning and do all I could to share it with kindness and respect. That said, it’s not unimaginable that I’d say something offensive without knowing it. So if you could make a distinction between sharing and spinning I’d appreciate it.
except…he didn’t, coz Jesus was God and ascended to heaven, just as an omniscient being knew he would…
or do we want to get into differing biblical sects and interpretations of the same passages (albeit repeated in dissimilar focus within the 4 differing narratives written at varying points well after the fact yet included in the bible, as others weren’t - if indeed the fact happened at all - etc.).
Personally, i’m still trying to work my way back through the bible…part of my reasoning is to know (and revise) where you guys are coming from; part of it is because i feel it’s rude to just rely on commonly bandied about verses that support your cause (and [censored] knows there’s enough of them to argue any point), and there’s a lil’ bit of me that remembers the fisrt time round and says (*wide-eyed*) ‘dude, you *really* believe in this stuff?!’
If the points I’m about to make don’t make sense, it’s because it’s 2:30 in the morning were I live. Why am I up? Sleep is overrated. And, here’s a little known fact. Christians don’t sleep (or poop). Sorry for the early morning potty humor.
First off, please don’t try to lecture someone on what is rude and then immediately thereafter imply that it’s crazy to believe Christianity (if that’s not what you meant to imply I’m sorry; I’m tired and that’s how I read it). If you replace the word rude with incorrect I’d appreciate it; I certainly didn’t mean to be rude in my original post.
Anyway, I’m not sure where you see the contradiction? Maybe you haven’t heard of the concept of the Trinity? Basically Christians believe in 3 persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) in one God. So it’s not at all a contradiction to assert that God the Father sent Jesus to die for our sins, and after the ressurection Jesus ascended into heaven.
Yes God knew this was going to happen. If you’re pondering in your mind then, why Jesus was praying and agonizing over the fact that he was going to die when He was in the Garden of Gethsemane, the best answer I can give you is that He was both true man and true God. As God He could do miracles, be perfect and rise from the dead. However, as man he had to suffer and die. He had to suffer through every temptation known to man - but he did it all without sinning. So hopefully that kind of clears your contradiction. If I missed the point of your first sentence and I didn’t answer your concern either you need to be clearer or I need to be awaker (and yes I know awaker is not a word).
I was about to type my best explanination about why their are so many denominations. However that question deserves a lot more thought and effort than I’m willing to expend at the moment.
And yes I’m a “dude” that believes this “stuff.”
(Hint about managing without a blockquote button - draft your comment on a blog which has the buttons like, say, Friendly Atheist. Use his blockquote button. Then when your comment is written, cut and paste the whole comment into the comments box here and submit it.)
Jason, thanks for your response.
This illustrates the problem. You’re assuming what you say works for me too. You think I should eat vegetables even if I like other food better because they are ‘good for me’. You will probably judge me if I don’t as stubbornly refusing good advice.
However, I happen to have a serious chronic condition which causes me problems if I eat vegetables. It’s not your fault you didn’t know. But if you had got to know me you’d have found out about my condition and then you wouldn’t have pressed me to eat something that causes me problems.
I think evangelism is supposed to be the Meals on Wheels service where you get to know someone first and listen to them. Then you know not to deliver the food they can’t eat. Or, say things in words they don’t understand.
…I think evangelism should be like this, in fact.
Helen,
Forgive me if my alalogy breaks down with a chronic human condition that makes vegetables poisonous instead of essential vitamins.
Good thing that sin is the same for all of us. There’s no confusing this one. Because of sin we are all separated from God, and under His wrath. It is essentially, in your case, a nice big bowl of spinach pasta you have just eaten without even realizing it.
The Gospel is the only cure for this problem. Christ crucified, in our place, is the only thing that can help us now. It doesn’t matter if someone doesn’t understand sin, or if they only think of it as “Christian” jargon. The reality of sin is the same for those who understand it and those who don’t…
That may seem like an arrogant statement, but let me explain where I’m coming from.
I believe in Grace. I was saved by grace and I think it is something that as Christians we are called to show people regardless of how we are bring treated in return. I also have a passion for the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and the importance of bringing it into the world like Christ called us to do in the scriptures. As Christians, we are the hands, feet, and mouth of God and he has commissioned us to spread His word, not our own!
I also believe that some unregenerate sinners have an extreme hatred for God and everything that He represents. They hate his Word, they hate his Church, and most importantly, they hate Him!
Should we try and help people however we can? Sure, but we should always take them to the Word of God, and not to our own watered-down versions of it. My problem with evangelism today is not that people are trying to spread the “Good News”. My problem is that they are taking away from God’s word to make it appear more appealing to those who want nothing to do with God. We [Christians] don’t need people to like us. We also don’t need to need the church to seem like a really “cool” place to hang out and drink coffee.
The truth is that people need to understand that they have (2) choices:
- To continue to live for themselves…
- Or to humble themselves, understand their hearts true condition, and repent for their unrighteousness before a Holy and Righteous God.
Jesus, in his ministry, may have used parables to help people better understand their true condition, but his message was always laced with scriptures to continue to point people towards their real issue. Our separation from God.
This will probably be my last post here for awhile as I have to slink back into my room where I’ll be studying exams for the next week. So it’ll be a long one.
First, to the unbelievers out there I do sympathize with your concerns. I have had practically no real experience sharing my faith with an unbeliever, however, if I get that opportunity in the future I want it to be as comfortable and respectful as possible.
Second, I think it’s great that many of us are on the same page when it comes to doing good. I think becoming a part of something like the Peace Core definitely has a place in my future. Helping people is quite frankly, awesome! If it weren’t for the wrath of my parents, I’d like to leave school, join an inner city organization and help the people who need it. We can all agree these type of things are of huge importance.
Thirdly, and most importantly however, I do have a problem with a certain tact used by some of the unbelievers here - and it’s probably unintentional. The problem is you are attempting to redefine the actual message of Christianity. I understand it’s easy to tune out Christians for many reasons. However, their are some things Christians tune out too. One is when an unbeliever tells me “I think evangelism should be like this” (sorry to pick on you Helen; Hover frog used the same technique).
If Christians decided the primary evangelism tool is good works, they would essentially be preaching to the chior. They would also be wrong.
Imagine if a Christian said to you that they are interested in hearing about why you don’t believe in the Christian God. But their is one caveat. You can only tell him about your beliefs by doing good works. I’m sure you would think that idea is crazy. Most non-believers believe that good works are a good thing (obviously), but the point is it has little to do with your view that the Christian God isn’t real. Well, now you know how I feel.
I will do good works out of love for my Savior. They can also be a conversation starter, however, for 99% of Christians they will never be the primary point of the message. The primary message is that Jesus is our Savior.
So since you will probably never convince a Christian what the Christian message is, tell us how to best share the message. If you honestly do not want a Christian to share his faith with you say so as nicely as you possibly can. But if you are willing to let a Christian share his faith with you, tell us how we can best do that while regarding your concerns and beliefs. I’m sure I speak for a majority of Christians when I say we want to share our faith with love, kindness and respect. Help us do that, just don’t presume that you can tell us what our message should be.
The problem Jason, is that people like myself don’t care what you believe just because the Bible says it. We don’t care what the Bible says. We don’t hate God. We just think he is make believe.
I don’t believe that humans are evil and degenerate. I don’t believe in original sin (or any other sin). I don’t believe in the need for salvation.
I don’t believe salvation works, either. There are good people and bad people who are born again. There are good people and bad people who are not. Getting saved doesn’t do anything.
I think some things are wrong because they cause suffering and we should try not to do these things. But other than that, I don’t care about following rules just because they were written down in a bunch of old manuscripts that have since been joined together into a book called The Bible.
I believe in helping people in the here and now because none of us really knows (no, not you either) what happens after death but we know people are suffering in this world and if we do nothing to stop and prevent suffering then we are acting in an immoral fashion.
I am not a bad person and I don’t care if you or anyone else thinks I am going to hell.
I’m not being arrogant either. My beliefs are just as valid as yours are.
If you are talking about me, that’s not what I meant at all and I tried to be as clear about that as possible. I am saying that people can’t understand your message because you don’t speak in words they are familiar with. I don’t agree with your message, but I’m not trying to redefine it. It’s your message, you get to decide what that message is. But if you continue to communicate with archaic and irrelevant language, then you just won’t get anyone outside of your club to understand what you are trying to say.
Jason I forgive you. Actually they aren’t poisonous, they just make my symptoms worse.
writterdd:
Thank you for your honsesty. I think it really helpsnprove the point I was attempting to make.
It wouldn’t matter how much we [Christians] “changed” the Gospel to put it into a language you can better understand. You understand the message quite well, and you just don’t believe it to be true.
I understand that you have a history with the church, but even those who don’t…if they are honest…don’t reject the Gospel because they can’t understand it…They reject it because they don’t [want to] believe it is true.
So, based on what you said in your post I understand where you are coming from and wish you the best during your short time here on earth, and I’ll be praying that you are able to accomplish great things.
James 4:14
Thank you for the conversation.
OK, Obviously I’m a bit rusty on my HTML :”>
James 4:14
I gotcha, Jason. You were missing a >
Bill:
Good lookin’ out bud!
Thanks
Yet “sin” remains undefined. What we do have is a core message of “be excellent to each other” and a whole lot of other things not to do. Rather than being the same for all of us, “sin” is vague and unhelpful in determining how to live your life.
I think that it is better to help people and, if you are an inspiration to them, they will find the word themselves. Not only if this more helpful to others but a better way to ensure that people are genuine in their conversion. If you don’t convert them, at least you’ve helped another human being, a failed conversion attempt helps no-one.
OK, it’s good to get your input. Good luck with the exams.
It’s a good thing that you have wise parents. Before immersing yourself in a life of service I would strongly suggest that you spend some time exploring the world. This is not to detract from your good intentions but to suggest that experience of different parts of the world (not just geographically) will grant any aid you give a greater power.
I think we all have different ideas of what Christianity’s message is.
If the rule applied to theists and atheists I’d be perfectly content to follow this. Except that my belief and discussing my belief isn’t an attempt to convert.
Sorry if it came across like that but what I was trying to do was explain what would work for me. The only think that would be effective is positive and compassionate action. The way I see it is that, even if you don’t bring Jesus to someone, you allow them to see the positive side of Christianity and the benefits of acting like Jesus. You said earlier WWJD. Well, what would he do if placed in the world (specifically in North America) today? Would he build up a huge mega church and preach his message or would he travel the world helping people and passing on his message as an example to others?
hoverFrog:
Sin is defined for each of us. It is written on our hearts. We know when we do wrong. We know what sin is. Maybe not fully, but even a child can tell you if they have done wrong. This is a something that God has done for each of us so that when we stand before Him, on judgement day, there will be no excuse.
Psalm 40:6-8
P.S. Converstion is the a work of any Christian. We are not called by God to “convert” people. Only to lead them to the truth. TRUE CONVERSION (I say that becasue many have false convertions) is the work of the Holy Spirit.
OK, no more 4:00AM posts…
This should have said,
Conversion is NOT the work of any Christian…
Jason wrote:
It’s not a simple choice like that, Jason.
If it is then the only reason you don’t believe in the Spaghetti Monster is because you’re refusing to submit to his authority.
Is that true? Could you believe in the Spaghetti Monster if you wanted to?
Helen:
I think your grasping at straws here.
Everyone knows that there is a difference between God [proper] and the flying spaghetti monster.
There is no evidence (written/historical/physical/supernatural) for the FSM. It is simply another thing atheist created to “mock” the God of the Bible.
On the other hand we have the God of scripture who since time began has revealed Himself to people in numerous ways. First of all we have creation, which in every other situation is marked by a creator. So why then in this one circumstance does it becomes an issue where we say it must have just happened accidentally over billions of years. Secondly, and probably most significantly, we have the Bible which is full of written records of humans [many, not just 1 which is very distinctive] encounters with God.
The other wonderful thing about the Bible is that God has chosen to reveal so much more about Himself through his Holy Word. So it’s not a guessing game when it comes to knowing His standards, character and of His expectations of mankind; hence the importance of bringing unbelievers to the Word of God. It allows the God of the Bible to “speak for Himself” and reveal Himself to the unbelieving. It is our job [using the Bible] to point these people in the right direction, and if their heart is right [softened by the Holy Spirit] then God will move in their life and the scriptures will start to make sense. That way in the end it is not us who gets the glory for someone’s salvation. And they will boast only in the Lord!
What else do we have on this earth with as much authority and credibility as the Bible?
Here are a few verses to chew on. Let me know what your thoughts are please.
Matthew 11:25-29
1 Cor. 1:18-31
1 Cor. 2:1-5
Jason, I wrote this a couple of years ago: Is the Bible the Word of God?
Jason, as I understand it “sin” is different from the culturally accepted definitions of “right” and “wrong”. For example, the bible labels homosexuality as a sin yet I, and many others, do not view it as immoral or wrong in any way. The bible labels it a sin to work on the Sabbath whereas I have no problem with Sunday workers and find it an inconvenience and annoyance that shops shut on a Sunday.
Great, then we agree. Now, what is the best way to lead someone to the truth? By demonstrating it in your actions.
The problem is actions don’t prove anything either. Some generous, caring, loving, amazing people are Christians. Some are atheists. Some are Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, you name it.
Some mean, vindictive, evil bastards are Christians. Some are atheists. Some are Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, you name it.
So my only conclusion is that Christian “salvation” does not work because Christians are no different than anyone else. And don’t say “we’re not perfect, just forgiven.” If getting saved is only a “get out of hell free” card, then it is a joke.
Helen:
And this is where our difference lies. I believe that the Bible is everything that it claims to be. Besides, if I was to take out parts of scripture that I didn’t like/understand, or that I didn’t think applied in today’s society then I might as well take away all of scripture. What are your guidelines for what scripture is, and what is not? Where then is your authority to do this? Does it lie within you to choose what is true and what isn’t?
To me, the Bible is sufficient, and is absolute truth…Regardless how my sinful man struggles to agree with what it says. It is used to teach, correct and rebuke the sinful man…In order to help me grow in righteousness.
Jason wrote: What are your guidelines for what scripture is, and what is not? Where then is your authority to do this? Does it lie within you to choose what is true and what isn’t?
Jason, each of us makes decisions about what we think is true and isn’t true. I can make my own decisions or I can let you (or someone else) make them for me. I would rather make my own decisions.
When you say the Bible is Authoritative all you are saying is, you as a human think it is.
I as a human disagree.
I don’t have any reason to value your opinion over mine regarding the Bible. Or to think your opinion about it is more authoritative than mine.
So I am going to stick with mine.
Hover Frog - why did you respond to me? You know I have exams, but it’s a rule of physics (or possibly biology) that if someone sees a reponse to what they have written they feel the need to answer.
I’m not sure how to quote, but I do think the “rule” I set out still applies. Here’s what I meant. If you want to show someone what you believe - whether it’s in the sciences, or in philosophy or in religion or in any type of knowledge their does have to be communication; their can’t just be action.
If you want to show someone how gravity works, you don’t just throw an apple into the air and let the person watch it come down. You have to explain the basics of what you are showing the person first, otherwise he’ll just think you’re throwing an apple.
If I help an old lady across the street, you have no idea what my thought process is. It could be so I could steal her purse afterwords. If could be because I believe Islam and I think that is what Islam would tell me to do. It could be because I worship the spaghetti monster. I think you get the idea.
For you to understand my actions in any degree, you have to understand my faith first. You have to understand that I believe that Jesus is my Savior, that he calls on Christians to believe that he died and rose from the dead and out of thanks (and not obligation) for His mercy we should treat others like He would have.
As to this question: “Would he build up a huge mega church and preach his message or would he travel the world helping people and passing on his message as an example to others?”
I think mega churches are a bad idea for a whole host of reasons - almost all of which I’m not going to get into now. But one of them is because in a mega church you’re just a face in the crowd. You can’t get personal help from the pastor very easily and if you want to learn more about your faith you’re either on your own or will have to wait in line until the pastor is less busy.
Yes indeed he would be traveling the world “helping people and passing on his message as examples to others?” However, his message is multifaceted and it’s not only to serve as an example - to limit his message to doing good is found nowhere in Christianity apart from maybe a few fringe groups which have decided this within the past 15 years.
I’ll quickly add to the mega church point I was making.
I think a good analogy is class room size. Teacher to student ratio is always highly valued when someone chooses a high school, and sometimes college as well.
The obvious reason is a teacher can relate to your concerns better, and help one on one with much more ease than if that teacher has a class of hundreds.
Jesus himself preached both to people personally, and to huge groups. Huge groups are fine if you are trying to reach a lot of people. It’s also fine if their is only one person person qualified to speak - in Jesus’ case he didn’t break the huge groups into smaller ones and tell his disciples to help them, because his disciples couldn’t preach the truth as well as he could.
In most cases however, a smaller group is better. With a large group, it seems the personality of the preacher is relied on much more heavily than the message of Christ (although I’m not saying those things are mutually exclusive). With large churches the services seem more like a concert - with entertainment emphasized. Instead it should be more similar to a classroom - where the service is a tool to teach Christ’s message.
Does anyone want to disagree with me on this? I always find this topic interesting. By the way I wrote this really quickly and didn’t think my arguements through, so I’d like to hear other view.
Goldeneye, I agree with your basic premise.
But one of the strengths of mega churches seems to be their small groups that meet during the week. So they offer both. Obviously some people only go to the large Sunday morning services, but other types of meetings generally are available. At least that’s the way it was when I was going to church and that’s what I’ve read about contemporary mega churches. Someone correct me if things are different now.
Still, when the senior pastor leaves a mega church, the attendance often goes down by thousands very quickly. So many of today’s mega church pastors are getting older now, it makes sense to wonder if the churches will survive their retirements/deaths.
Writerdd, your points are good ones.
I think you’re right when you say that the pastor of a mega church is extremely important. That their might come a time when the senior pastor leaves and attendence goes down very quickly.
If a Christian believes that the message is more important than the pastor, then he won’t leave as long as what the church is teaching is Christianity.
If a Christian believes an exciting, intense and hip pastor is just as important as the message this leads to all sorts of trouble.
I think the concert analogy works here. If I used to like Lincoln Park and wanted to go to their concert, but now I hear Paramore and think they totally rock even more I’m going to Paramore’s concert. I don’t care that Paramore has a different style than Lincoln Park; listening to them makes me feel awesome and that’s what matters.
What if someone hears an even more exciting pastor somewhere different from the church they normally go to? Maybe he won’t care that the message is different. Maybe he won’t even care that the message isn’t even Christian. It’s the fact that the service makes them feel good that matters.
I think some mega churches are like this. They sacrifice what’s really important, Christ’s message, for what they think will get people in the seats - entertainment.
Obviously what really matters for a Christian is how super cool their pastor and church service is (heavy sarcasm intended).
Have you sold all of your belongings yet?
Sara:
To answer your question…I have counted everything loss for the sake of the cross…Yes…
Jesus knew that this rich man had a “god” above the God in heaven. His god was his money, and until this man was able to come to a place where his earthly possessions didn’t have more significance to him then his Heavenly treasure then he wasn’t fully devoted to God.
The Bible also tells us, “Where our treasure is, there our hearts will be also…”
Jesus didn’t tell his disciples to “sell all their possessions…” In fact, that wasn’t really a common part of His message at all…He said it to this rich young ruler whom He knew cherished things of this world (riches) over God…And for that, Jesus was very sad.
This was a man who was trying to work his way into heaven by simply following the 10 commandments. And Jesus was trying to get the point across that “There is no one good but God…” Following the 10 commandments will get this man nothing because he is a sinner.
It takes a heart that is willing to count all things loss for the sake of Jesus, and his atoning sacrifice on the cross. This is the message that is found throughout the scripture and shows the importance of not only looking at one simple verse to try and prove a point or make a decision. You have to weigh all of scripture to ensure you have a “correct” understanding of what is being said.
Jason wrote; He said it to this rich young ruler whom He knew cherished things of this world (riches) over God
Jason, does the Bible actually say Jesus knew that? Does it say this person put money before God more than other people Jesus didn’t ask to sell their possessions?
If not, how do you know these things? Were they divinely revealed to you? Did someone else teach you that? If so how did they know?
This is why I stopped believing what people say who claim to be telling me what the Bible says.
I find that they aren’t just telling me what it says, in fact. They add in assumptions all over the place just like I think you have done here. They throw in things that aren’t in the text, as if they know they are true. Which confuses me since a) how do they know they are true and b) right near the end of the Bible there is a very dire warning against adding anything to the text. Making assumptions about what it means that aren’t in there - isn’t that adding to the text?
So when someone asks me if I believe what the Bible says what they really seem to be saying is “Do you believe what the Bible says plus all the assumptions I added onto that about what it means?”
And I didn’t even get to how if I strip out the assumptions, what is left is unclear/seems to contradict itself. And/or say things I cannot in good conscience agree with.
Actions don’t prove that gods exist, that’s true. What they do prove is that acting in a certain way, in accordance with a set of beliefs, can have positive effects. More than that it demonstrates that the church (synagogue, temple, whatever) can be a force for good.
Sadly I don’t see that in the actions of churches, I see advertising and proselytising.
Goldeneye said:
No, I don’t. A single action may be mysterious to me but the cumulative effect of positive actions in the face of my own inaction may make me think about your motivation and ask or enquire as to your reasons for offering aid. It may be that I find our that you’re just a kind person, you may be a Buddhist, you may be a Christian. Once I see the positive effect you have and enquire about the cause I may be tempted to follow in your footsteps or just to find out more.
My point is that to get me to accept your philosophy you must first demonstrate that it is worth listening to.
I agree. I’m just saying that no one religion or way seems to be the only/best way to providing these positive effects. Basically, people in the US are Christians because they were born here. If they’d been born in India, they’d probably be Hindus. If they were born in Iran, Muslims. It’s just a geographical accident.
HoverFrog,
I’m guessing we’re not going to agree on this anytime soon.
Here are just a few problems with what you’re saying.
1. You don’t have the time to go and study in detail every single person you see do something good. This would very likely take all your time. Likewise, a Christian would probably find it a waste of effort to go and find an unbeliever for the very purpose of doing good works in front of him. We have the ability to talk so we can get our ideas across quicker than if we have to act them out.
2. You’re still confusing the person with the message. You’re point would be more valid if any Christian was fully able to “love one another” like Christ said. However, all Christians make mistakes, and they make a lot of them. The apostle Paul - the greatest Christian missionary - called himself the worst of sinners. The reason Jesus came was precisely because our actions would never be good enough. Yes I try to do good, but I will also sin. That doesn’t mean people shouldn’t listen to Christ’s message.
3. You could see Christians constantly doing good works without it having any effect on whether or not you believe the Christian God is real. If I see a Hindu (which I admit I know little about), doing good works, I’ll be glad she’s doing them. What I won’t do however, is start thinking that maybe that Hindu’s God is the right God.
Sometime in my life I want to go to an Arsenal (I love the Premier League) game, so I’m sure I’ll get to England in my lifetime. Let’s pretend I take a bus to the game and we end up sitting next to each other. We start chatting about Arsenal, the club, their style of play, the stadium and the fans. As a joke you say something to the effect that I’m almost religious about following Arsenal. We have a laugh and I ask in the same tone and out of interest, what you believe. You say you’re an atheist, and I say I’m a Christian. We keep on conversing about the relative strenghts of what we believe, why we believe it and how our beliefs apply in everyday life. We get off the bus and go our seperate ways. Neither of minds are changed but we have given each other something to think about.
When I speak of evangelism this type of image pops into my mind. It’s a more personal way of doing what we’re discusing here. Obviously you’re on this site so learning about a Christian’s viewpoint does not seem to repulse you.
So I’m wondering why you’re at odds with Christians sharing their message. Have you had mostly bad experiences with it? Do you imagine a fire and brimestone preacher yelling at you from beginning to end? I can’t speak for Christians in general, but I know my friends that are Christian would all treat you with respect.
Maybe if we ever got on the same bus, in principle Christianity would be a taboo topic for you because you haven’t seen me do good works. However, I think this view is your view in principle and not in reality. I believe this, because you’re discussing Christianity with Christians on a Christian site and you haven’t seen one of them do a good work.
Helen:
Simply said…There are (3) Gospel accounts of this same story which each gives us more details about what was going on.
That’s the beauty of the Bible. (4) eye witness accounts of Jesus’ ministry on earth! Now that is something to believe in. The awesome part about this is that we can go to each account of the story of the Rich Young Ruler and gather all the information quite well. God is so Good!
Matthew’s Account
Luke’s Account
Mark’s Account
Your hang-ups about the Bible, or even how most usually read it are understandable. However, the Bible (In Paul’s letter to Timothy) gives instructions on handling the word rightly.
There are a lot of things that we handle with care in this world, but the Word of God is, without a doubt, the most important.
Goldeneye, you may be right about is not agreeing.
I said nothing about seeking out unbelievers to “act good” in front of them. The actions of a person doing good require no audience or praise. In fact you may never gain credit from doing them. How will a person ever appreciate what you’ve done and attribute it to your faith? What if they never do and the good works go unnoticed? Does it matter? I’m really talking about an holistic approach. The good that you do has a positive effect. Maybe it puts you in a better mood and you treat someone better than you otherwise would have, maybe it put someone else in a better mood. Your good deeds have a small positive effect on the world.
I’m not saying that this will allow you to spread the word except in the rarest of circumstances. When you’ve made a difference and invite another person to appreciate the world in the same way that you do. In fact you’ve described just such an incident. Although football really isn’t my thing.
Actually Bill has done good deeds, last year he travelled to Costa Rica and helped with medical and construction work. I’ve seen the pictures and listened to his account. He didn’t talk about it, or display it as a lesson on how Christians can do good but as a way that human beings can help one another and how he felt motivated by his beliefs to help others. A good example of good works, I think you’ll agree.
Okay, I think we agree to disagree. I think one sentence really makes that clear:
“football really isn’t my thing.”
Now I really question your judgement.
Goldeneye,
Preach it, brother!! Then again, we can’t be TOO mad at hoverFrog. Sports are very Godly, and he doesn’t believe. Oh the agony…
An excerpt from another blog I frequent. I found it very applicable to this post:
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