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[tag]Atheists [/tag]- you’re convinced that God doesn’t exist.
[tag]Christians [/tag]- you’re convinced that God does exist.
So here’s the question of the day:
What if you’re wrong?
“I’m not wrong” doesn’t answer the question.
Popularity: 8% [?]
Filed under:
Questions
Been watching this blog since Hemant suggested it. What about Jews, Muslims, Hindis, etc?
For the Christians there’s a couple of questions as there are for the aetheists… For the Christians there are “What if YOUR god doesn’t exist?” and “What if a higher deity (generalized…i.e. all of them) doesn’t exist?”
With that said I’m going to answer my own questions…
If God/Yahweh does not exist but another one does it depends on the religion but in general…..ooops. I’m screwed (assuming it’s not simply a generalized higher power that accepts anything ).
As for if a higher power doesn’t exist then I guess I’ve been channeling my energies into philospizing over a fictional (or at least mostly fictional..there is some proof to Judah being destroyed if I’m not mistaken) and trying to do good through taking portions of it to heart (and discarding others as “not good works”).
:d
If I’m wrong, I would hope that the life I’ve lead being kind, loving, and charitable towards others for the sake of itself would be enough to warrant a place in the bright blue yonder.
I don’t know. So much depends on the specifics of the God.
Not exactly answering the question, but a similar question - what do you say if you meet God after you die ? “Hello.” Anything else would be making assumptions.
I’d rather be wrong in believing in God, than believing that he doesn’t exist. If I’m wrong about Him existing, then the worst that happens is I have hope for this life and when I die and don’t go anywhere.
Hey Bill… I actually answered this in a post awhile back. Here’s my take on it, personally. I am a Christian. My life isn’t perfect. I do stupid things. Things I know I should not do and then some honest mistakes. I am human. Since I became a Christian though my life has changed tremendously! In Romans it says (this works for me because I believe the bible) the truth about God is known to us instinctively. Even the non-believer knows right from wrong, instinctively. All my life I wondered why there is right or wrong, what constitutes right or wrong. Now I know. God is the reason. He just is. All this to say…IF I am wrong and at the end of my life, that I have lived with integrity and honesty, I find there really is no God or Heaven; just a big chunk of nothing, then I won’t be any worse off than the unbeliever who will meet the same end. BUT…if I’m right and the unbeliever is wrong that will truly be a horrific day for many! But I have faith in God and CHOOSE to believe. I CHOOSE faith. It is risky - life is risky - it’s a risk I’m willing to take. It’s the best risk I’ve ever taken. It’s what I choose and the way I see it - I have nothing to lose here. :-c
If I’m wrong about there not being a God (and there is always the possibility no matter how small) then I’m going to have a few questions for the man upstairs. After which I doubt very much that I’ll be allowed anywhere near heaven for an awful long time indeed.
Let’s say that I am wrong and there is a Christian God (as opposed to the 10,000) or so other deities currently being worshipped) then why would I want to waste my time worshipping him (sorry Him), praising him and acting in accordance with his wishes? As far as I’m concerned he has done nothing worthy of respect let alone worship.
That should stir things up a bit.
hover…dude…you crack me up, man.
I respect your honesty.
Well, if I’m wrong, I’m wrong. Oh well.
But what if you’re wrong and god does exist but it’s Allah or Krishna or someone else besides Jehovah? So it’s not such an easy “either or” question. Since there are so many religions that all claim to be right (and most claim to be the only way that is right), what possible way is there to tell which god is actually the true god? Many religions have holy books that say their truth. Who’s to say that one holy book is right an the others are wrong? It’s an impossible quagmire.
But really, belief is not voluntary. You don’t choose to believe or not believe. You examine the evidence that is before you (and, perhaps the experience of people you trust), and your brain comes up with an answer. Pop! You believe. Pop! I don’t believe. So there’s really no choice in the matter. I tried to keep brainwashing myself for a long time after I had serious doubts about the existence of God, but in the end it didn’t work and I had to admit that I no longer believed in the existence of any gods (or anything supernatural at all, for that matter). I did not choose one way or the other. I learned things that changed the way my brain worked.
honestly, as a Christian if I am wrong…i have still lived a good life and nothing is lost, good values have been passed down…if I am right…glad I made the choice. :)>- Tam-taking the risk too. Hover=I do respect your honesty too
I am not absolutely sure that god does not exist, however, I am sure enough about it to be comvortable in living my life without religion. If I am wrong, and god does exist, then I hope that the fact that I have lived a good and moral life is taken into consideration by god. If that is not the case and god is as vengeful as the old testament would have you believe, then we are all screwed.
Sounds vaguely like a variation on a certain well-known wager :-\”
As an atheist, I have to go with hoverFrog’s answer. I will have some very serious questions for El Hefe after which I will gladly accept my well-deserved eternal damnation in the fiery pit of pain and misery. I will also have to tip my hat and offer a “Well played sir” to you-know-who >:) .
If I am wrong and the Christian god exists, then I’m going to need some SPF 10,000,000,000,000. Same for Allah, YHWH, and a whole host of other unfriendly deities.
If it’s some other, more reasonable god, then I think I’m in for a good time.
If I’m right, then it’s the long, dirt nap for me.
No matter what happens, I’m glad that I didn’t cave in to the fear of Hell. I rose above my upbringing and all the indoctrination by daring to think for myself. I’m a man, not a sheep.
(Assumption: Christian god.)
If I’m wrong… I’ll enjoy hell to the best of my abilities (and stir up a little harmless trouble while I’m still alive, as well). I refuse to accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior so that I can go to a heaven designed by a hypocrite (thou shalt not kill, anyone?) where people including Falwell and Dobson lounge around. And, hey, maybe I’ll meet Socrates and Gandhi while I’m down there, so that’s sure to be great. We could have tea and pastries with Satan.
Of course, if God is like nothing in the Bible, then I’d try to smack him/her/it/them for not doing something about that. And if there still was a hell, I’d be there.
(Assumption: non-Christian god.)
I’d hope for the Deist’s version and wait to see if I’m right, but I wouldn’t spend too much time thinking about it at all. What happens, happens.
If more specifics were known (like it was Allah or Zeus or whatever) then I’d do a little research about him/her/it/them to see what I’d be in for.
Regardless of the god(s), I’d try not to dwell on it, because that would take away from the life I have to live now.
8-x (Sorry, this was too great not to use.)
I am a Christian, and I hate religion. I do love the relationship thing though. Even according to the Bible Jesus wasn’t into religion…check out some of the conversations he had with the church leaders..Pharisees, Saducees.
I love you guys, and your honesty, love that we can just talk here.
I’m actually not convinced that a god doesn’t exist.
But I’m pretty well convinced that the God described by human religions doesn’t exist… they self-contradict.
If I’m wrong, and a human God does exist, then as others have said, he sounds like a petty, vindictive character much more akin to Zeus and the egotistical mercurial tyrants of the classical pantheon than anything close to the Author of the subtle, elegant universe we find around us.
The Human God of the Bible is a lot more like the character Q from Star Trek than anything worthy of worship. He acts more like a 2-year-old child than like a father, much less a being of infinite perspective, wisdom, insight and empathy. As I would never bow down to Q or Zeus or Jupiter, I would likely never bow down to the Bible’s God.
The less like the Biblical God a god turns out to be, the more likely I’d worship it. If I turn out to be able to live forever in bliss or in torment, I’ll have a lot of time to come to change my mind about that…
Perhaps if He actually requires worship (awfully petty of Him) if enough of us withhold worship from an unworthy God, we can get Him to change His nature. We supposedly have an infinite amount of time to work over this stuff…. either He or I will come to an agreement eventually, unless one of us is eternally unreasonable.
I’ll cross that bridge when it actually presents itself, and not in the relatively infinitely small physical lifetime when all possible gods are invisible and wil-o-the-wisp and as unverifyable as the promises of politicians.
If I’m wrong about something, I will accept the fact and admit I was wrong. My head may be turned with evidence.
I would also ask which God? Just proving God doesn’t prove it’s the one in Bible.
And if God was spesificially proven as the God in Bible, I’d be sad because of the things in the old testament.
When it comes to Pascal’s wager, with so many religions, I can’t see how anyone can claim to know God’s will. To me, he seems to favour the more irreligious European countries :)>-
Someone mentioned Pascal’s Wager. Greta Christina has got a wonderful reformulation of it… call it the Atheist’s Wager:
“Be a good person, by your own good faith beliefs and efforts, and don’t bother with what God thinks.
“If God is a capricious evil bastard who keeps changing the rules and doesn’t play by them anyway, it doesn’t matter what you do. You have no way of knowing what he’ll reward or punish. So you might as well just do what you think is right, regardless of what God may or may not think.
“If God is good, by any reasonable definition of the word “good” that we can comprehend, then he’ll reward you for being a good person regardless of whether you believe in him or not.
“And if God doesn’t exist, there are still plenty of reasons to be a good person: feeling empathy for people and a sense of connection with them, yada yada yada.”
Greta_Christinas_Weblog
Oh, I apologize for keeping coming back and adding thoughts…. Sloppy writing.
But I just want to hit on an idea I had earlier and really bring it more clearly:
Why the HECK does it have to be that we make up our minds about God BEFORE we die? Do we lose the pop-quiz? Do we lose free-will when we die?
I mean, I KNOW why the Church Power Base wants you to make up your mind, sign up your eternal soul and start giving money and bowing in supplication today. They have a vested self-interest in getting you signed up while you can bow and grant them power in THIS LIFE. From a SALES PITCH standpoint, I can see why Churches would TEACH that you have to get the answer right before you die. The most numerous and most powerful churches would be the ones who got the most adherants in this world, not the next.
But, logically, and from the point of view of the infinite… why the religious mind f**k? Why is it that to get to heaven, you’ve got to believe at some point before some random event in your near or far future life? Why is that? Why is God all about believing in the invisible before that pop-quiz date?
Why can’t we “believe” once we have all the evidence? Why can’t we “worship God” once we have died and met St. Peter?
I mean, the two options as I see it are, either God is really big on loyalty tests and head games, or this is all a self-serving scam invented by a very clever member of the spiritual oligarchy who wanted to grow his flock. (My money’s on the latter.)
“What if I’m wrong?” Then I’ll tell God, to His Face that He needs a better system. If rational, moral, loving, kind, thoughtful, good people aren’t getting saved…
Then, He needs a better system.
If I’m wrong…
I guess I’m just happy that the example that I’m trying to follow is the greatest love this world has ever seen (IMO).
Hopefully I’d have done my part in making the world a better place.
Bill wrote “If I’m wrong…[...] hopefully I’d have done my part in making the world a better place.”
Exactly - well said! That’s my hope too.
If I’m wrong I’m happy to apologize; I hope that counts for something!
So…you can only be a Christian or an atheist?
If I’m wrong, I’m wrong. ~shrug~ Ain’t much I can do about that when I finally find out the real deal, eh? And we will all find out the real deal in exactly the same way, Christian, atheist, and all of us other people who never seem to have a place in these little mental exercises.
Like the man says, “some of it’s magic, some of it’s tragic, but I had a good life all the way…”
It is what it is…
Pay attention, take care of each other, and clean up after yourself, and stop worrying about who’s wrong and who’s right.
I have to say Bill, as a Christian some of the blaspheming of my Lord that is going on in this site is a little hard to read at times, but unshaking in my faith. I wish we could be as open and honest in our beliefs as they are, there is eternity at stake here…./:) but that being said the question is simple…if they are right I really have nothing to worry about, if believers are right then non-believers risk an eternity from the one true living God, not man made, and dead gods…..otherwise known as Hell.
Actually I want to change my answer: I’m never wrong, so, not an issue.
God’s Gal, I think there are more options than you said. What if the Christians and atheists are wrong and the Muslims are right? (Pascal evidently overlooked that option too)
Gods Gal, you miss the point. As a believer you could be picking the wrong god, the wrong holy book. It’s not a question of yes or no, Christian or atheist. There are literally thousands of choices as to what can be right. If the Muslims or Mormons are right after all? You will be in hell anyway.
The concept of Hell was one of the things that turned me off Christianity. A person’s religion being largely an accident of where they were born and raised it struck me as very unfair that non-Christians would be punished so harshly no matter how well they lived their lives. An unfair deity is not worthy of respect and a deity I don’t respect is unworthy of worship.
Thanks to the Pope you don’t even get the soft option of Limbo anymore.
Bill, I am glad that you respect my honest (blunt as it can be) but I would prefer a counter to my arguments. For instance: if you are wrong then you have wasted your life living to the rules of a fiction written 2000ish years ago. Your only life. You’ve spent Sunday mornings listening to lies and have perpetrated these same lies to others based on no more evidence than your own belief. Even philosophy and logic contradict your belief. Rather than seek to redress the harm inflicted by your fellow man you wasted your time in prayer which achieved nothing.
I know you may think the same of me but I’d rather spend my life living than in preparation for a reward that may never come.
Helen, writerdd, I don’t think I’ve missed the point at all….after experiencing a relationship with the One true Living God, there are no other options to consider..that’s the beauty of belonging to Him, so for me there are no What if’s or “if” at all. I have the security of knowing Him and exactly where I’m going.
hoverfrog, in reality it seems to me that the lives of most ordinary Christians and atheists are fairly similar.
That means that if Christians are going to look back on a wasted life then atheists will too.
Regarding prayer: prayer often motivates people to take action about what they pray about, so it’s not necessarily a complete waste of time.
If you think the way you spend your time is substantially different from the way most Christians spend their time, I’d be interested to see a list of those differences. I’m guessing that if you have a job you spend the same amount of time at work as they do (and most of them are not in Christian professions); if you have a partner you do things together - so do they; if you have friends you do things together - so do they; if you’re raising children they take up a lot of your time; same for Christians.
God’s Gal, isn’t there some faith involved in your belief in God? If so then how can you say there’s no ‘if’? How can you claim absolute certainty?
(I’m not claiming absolute certainty myself; my view is, I don’t know whether God exists.)
Hi Helen, I would love to discuss this with you, but I want to respect Bill’s wishes for his blog site…..If you want email me at Praise_Fire@yahoo.com and I’d love to chat with ya!!!
Helen, I can’t give you a list of my Sunday morning activities without blushing but your point is well made. If I live my life as well as anyone else (or at least as harmlessly) how can a benevolent deity deny me admission into paradise? It just makes no sense to me that anyone could be that vindictive and still warrant praise.
Again hoverfrog, I will respect Bill’s wishes on his blog but would love to chat with you at the above email. I do have a question tho, if one of your children denied your very existance, and snubbed their nose at you every chance they got, then asked you to let them live in your house, would you let them? The fact that you are breathing today shows the extent of His mercy and patience with mankind. We praise Him because we understand who He is,,,it’s that simple.
God’s Gal, thanks for the invitation to chat but I was just looking for a brief answer.
hoverFrog, I agree - that’s why if I’m wrong, I’m hoping I’ll get credit because I did the best I could.
Helen, that’s fine, I guess briefly I would say I AM claiming absolute certainty which is solely based on my faith and His grace. I can honestly say there is zero doubt in my soul, mind or spirit who He is, and that I am His. That would be my shortest answer as to why there are no if’s for me.:)
God’s Gal wrote: “I do have a question tho, if one of your children denied your very existance, and snubbed their nose at you every chance they got, then asked you to let them live in your house, would you let them? The fact that you are breathing today shows the extent of His mercy and patience with mankind.”
God’s Gal, maybe God is pleased when atheists point out how abhorrent some views of God are. Maybe he likes their honesty; maybe he even laughs at some of the things they say (is it impossible that God has a sense of humor? If he doesn’t where did ours come from?) Maybe God appreciates every atheist who is out there doing his/her best to live a meaningful life - caring about others and trying to make the world a better place. Maybe being praised is not the only thing God cares about; maybe it’s not even top of his list.
I think you (and some other Christians) might have a harder time with atheists than God does. Think about the Prodigal Son story. If the elder son had had his way he would never have let the younger son back in the house, would he? But the father thought differently. And atheists aren’t necessarily squandering the father’s resources like the younger son did. Many of them are out there doing good things - and God (if he exists) knows it.
God’s Gal, thanks for the brief answer on certainty.
GodsGal: I will respect Bill’s wishes on his blog but would love to chat with you at the above email.
Where has Bill said things can’t be discussed in the comments?
Gods Gal, there is evidence for my existence. If I’d gone to Darkest Peru and cut off all contact with my children and they then denied my existence and lived in my house then I’d be quite happy for that to happen. An absent parent is not worthy of the title of parent.
Helen, doing the best you can is all anyone can do. Although I don;t believe in any deity the hypothesis of this blog entry is that I am wrong. With that in mind I think that you particular take on divine punishment and mercy is an excellent viewpoint.
Hi Helen, I’m happy to continue this unless Bill would like it stopped, so Bill if it’s not ok, shoot me an email….But Helen, I don’t view Gods views as being “abhorrent” I see them as purposeful….everything He does and says has a purpose. ( I know, another blog on that is coming:d) I know God appreciates honesty, I know I do!!! And yes, He does laugh, smile, etc… He’s not up there with a big stick ready to beat people!! But if you’re going to acknowledge those emotions in Him, you can’t deny that He also feels grief over a humanity He created that has turned their back on Him. I happen to have many athiest friends, some even family and I love them dearly. They are good people, would never hurt a fly, pay all of their bills and live a wonderful life! I’m not and never would say that because you are an athiest your automatically a murderer, adulterer, or anything like that, neither would anyone else walking with the Lord. The point of the prodigal son story is not the older son, he didn’t have the authority to allow the prodigal back home anyway. It is the Father’s heart and his wishes. I’m sure that our Heavenly Father feels the same grief over the people down here that are doing their own thing, no matter how good, and squandering their inheritance, only they refuse to come home again. The prodigal was welcomed home by the father once he had a heart change….same with the Heavenly Father. The prodigal came home once he understood the wisdom and love of the father, and his need for him. It’s the same with God. If you re read that story, you’ll see some emotions of the older son that weren’t all that wonderful as well. That’s a whole other thing, but I do appreciate your honesty, and you! I again want to make clear that I KNOW non-believers are doing good things…and I’m sure God knows it. Denying His existance tho is what grieves His heart.
So what difference does right or wrong make. As far as I know, when you’re dead there’s no chance to brag to the folks back home - whether you’re a theist or atheist or just never considerd the question worthy of your attention.
Life is only sliding along the “now” and making the best of it. Anything after death would be a continued opportunity. If there is nothing, then there is a tremendous so-what factor.
Gods Gal/Helen/hover…
You guys are fine. You’re right, writerdd.
Woodwose - You said, “as far as I know, when you’re dead…” I guess that was the point of this post. What IF what you knew wasn’t right?
God’s Gal, thanks for your response.
I’m no longer able to believe that denying God’s existence is that big a deal.
I could be wrong; I’m simply saying what I find myself unable to believe.
I’m not that worried about being wrong. Right now I’m just worried about being honest with myself. And if it turns out that I am wrong, I’m just hoping that is enough for God.
As an atheist, if what I’ve believed here in this life based on evidence turns out to be wrong, then I have nothing to fear. I will have lived a good and noble life and, well, I am content in being true to myself and the evidence.
If a God, who supposedly knows everything, can’t seem to understand why I made the decisions I made and agree that they were right decisions at the right time, well, then he’s not much of a guy worth being with anyway.
What good is free will if the God granting it only wants you to use it HIS way?
Helen, at the other end of the spectrum I can’t believe that denying God isn’t a huge deal….I can’t even look out my window without seeing His wonder all around me so to believe anything else is foreign to me. Thank you for your honesty!
Michael De, That’s my point as a believer, based on evidence seen AND unseen there is no way I could ever deny God exists. Once I truly began to seek Him out, it was then He showed me who He truly was. He is a gentleman and would never force Himself on anyone which is the true purpose for free will in the first place. Why only His way? Cause He’s God….perfect love has bounderies and order don’t you agree? Without them there is only chaos.
writerdd: Bill had stated some ground rules in an earlier post, I want to respect those and keep this blog for what he wants, he says our discussion is fine so I’m good with that as well
Hoverfrog: If you did go to Peru and let’s say everyone you knew denied you ever existed, would you not still exist in spite of what people said? I agree that an absent parent is not worthy as the title of parent if they are choosing to not be part of a child’s life. A parent who wants nothing more than to love a child and be involved with every aspect of their life, but yet denied to do so is a different story.
hmm, well, I tend to be Deistic, so I would be in trouble if it were the Christian God I guess (I assume that is who you mean?)- I guess I would hope that God would look at the good things I’ve done, who I was, and WHY I couldn’t believe in him, as opposed to the fact that I didn’t.
I would exist but there is still evidence for my existence. I have a birth certificate, medical records, a credit history, and even a blog to prove that I exist. In a thousand years much of this could still be around and if I have a big enough impact on the world there will be a whole lot more supporting evidence. There simply is no evidence for the existence of any deity. All you have is faith.
How is the Christian God denied from supporting his “children”? Surely anything is within the power of an omnipotent being? Could not God cure sickness and poverty, end wars and heal dissent if he so desired? If the answer is yes then the conclusion is that he must want the world to be full of strife, sickness and suffering. If the answer is no then he isn’t as powerful as we are led to believe.
It is better for me to believe that their is no God rather than there being an omnopotent and cruel tyrant lording it over us and reveling in our idiocy and pain.
hoverFrog: Wow, I just don’t know how anyone can even drive to a mountain, lake, stream, or look up on a clear night and not see evidence of God. There is a whole book that proves His existence…the fact that they are now uncovering the very things spoken of in the Bible should prove something? Also, why when people work so hard at taking Him out of every aspect of life, then turn around and blame Him when things go wrong? It was never His intention for illness, or poverty or war or even death to take place. I have way more than faith, I have a God who supplies ALL of my need, including emotional, physical, spiritual, financial, and it’s free….because of my faith and His grace. It is sufficiant for me. People’s non-belief in Him does not make Him any less real.
I can look on nature or the stars and feel wonder without believing that it was created by a divine intelligence. I wasn’t blaming God for the things that go wrong. The hypothetical was that I was wrong about God and I was saying that even if this were the case I would still seek some explanation for the world’s ills because it utterly escapes me how any benevolent deity could possibly allow it to continue.
Gods Gal, I was a born again Christian for over 20 years, so I understand completely where you are coming from. I used to feel exactly the same way. I don’t think anyone here is trying to shake your faith. I know that I am not. I don’t like when Christians evangelize, and I certainly do not want to be an atheist evangelist. We are just answering Bill’s quesitons with our own viewpoints.
To answer your questions, it’s really easy to look at the universe and not see God. I do it all the time. When I look up into the night sky, I see all kinds of wonderous physics happening, I see billions of years of history, I see stars being born and dying and so many galaxies filled with so many stars that it boggles the mind, I think that maybe there’s even life on other planets circling other stars in distant galaxies, I am in awe of the fact that we humans exist at all on this tiny speck of dust circling our own not-very-special star. It amazes me to no end to think that I am, quite literally made out of the stuff of stars. But I don’t think God had anything to do with it.
I also don’t blame God for the bad in the world. I think, “sh*t happens”. That’s what I think about the good and the bad stuff, for the most part. That’s just the way it is. Except that we humans have the ability to transcend that and to create good and bad on our own. That is a huge responsibility, also having nothing to do with God.
I wrote an article about my own spirituality after I stopped believing in God. You can read it if you are truly interested in understanding how people can look at the beauty of the heavens and not see the hand of God. I speak about that specifically in the article. Here’s a link:
http://www.skepchick.org/spirituality1.html
To your last point, if I’m mistaken and there is a God after all, and it is not God’s will for illness and other evils to exist yet they exist anyway then he’s a pretty lame God if you ask me.
God’s Gal wrote:
“Wow, I just don’t know how anyone can even drive to a mountain, lake, stream, or look up on a clear night and not see evidence of God. ”
All I see there is evidence of nature, not of a personality or a being in the sky making things.
Remember, God is proported to be a SUPERnatural thing. And yet when people say “look there’s proof of God all around you” they always point to natural things. Why is that?
I know natural things exist. Where’s the evidence of the supernatural? Why do christians think that the existence of natural things automatically implies the existence of the supernatural?
If there is no God as I currently believe, then I have pulled off the most incredible act of self-hypnosis ever, freeing myself from amazingly horrible thoughts, actions towards others, and destructive habits. I’d then give myself a much-deserved dead man’s pat on the back for my brilliance and enjoy infinity in my nothingness.
writerdd, you have me beat - I can only claim about 17 years of being a Bible-believing Christian before I accumulated too many doubts to be comfortable with that label any more.
writerdd: Thank you for your thoughts and no my faith is neither now nor ever will it be shaken…..;;) I also don’t intend to take on the entire athiest blog world….LOL I have walked with the Lord since 1992 and have experienced nothing but a closer, deeper and fortifying walk with the Lord, the closer I become and the more I seek Him out, the more of Himself He shows. It is in taking that step toward Him that He has shown His love and faithfullness toward me. There is nothing, or no one who is capable of changing my mind…if I am wrong, according to ya’ll I’m fine, if I’m right (and I do believe I am with all of my being)….I’ll spend an eternity with a God who will say “Well done, good and faithful servant when He welcomes me with open arms…..
Gods Gal,
“There is nothing, or no one who is capable of changing my mind…”
This I find quite sad. If evidence of God’s existence — or of anything else I don’t believe in — crops up and is confirmed by experimentation, I would certainly change my mind. I am open to learning new things, and to the idea that new things may be discovered at any time.
It’s sad that so many Christians are not.
ooooh…interesting point, writerdd!
Until listening to Hemant speak, I had never heard an Atheist say that they weren’t 100% sure that God didn’t exist.
From your experience, is it common for an Atheist to admit that?
writerdd: I do have evidence of His existence tho, I have Him as evidence and quite a relationship at that!
For me, there is no changing my mind, I love new things and experiencing them, and I love new people regardless of where they are in their walk in life, I’m just saying there is no other god for me but Him. I have done all of the soul searching, experimenting, researching and He has shown me that He is the only way for complete fullfillment for my life..and I am SOOOO happy!!!! He’s alive and real and that means everything to me and us as a family! :)>-
Bill, I think it’s quite common for atheists to admit they aren’t 100% sure. Generally they then go on to clarify, they are 99.9% sure based on the evidence they have and it would take a lot to change their mind.
Have you seen this youtube video?
Hope vs. Certainty
Jim, the follower of Jesus in the video, has been criticized for saying he’s not certain: a radio host really took him to task for it earlier this year and said that means he’s only a luke-warm Christian.
Bill, I am an atheist because I don’t see any evidence that any gods exist (not just the Christian god). I am agnostic because I will readily admit that it can’t be proved either way.
I think most atheists hold this view, although they might not state it using the same words. I also think most atheists and skeptics are open to changing their minds should new evidence come into play.
I used to think my personal experiences counted as evidence but after time I came to realize that, YES, my spiritual experiences were real. I know that beyond a shadow of a doubt. But there are many possible ways to explain them, so they don’t provide any kind of proof of God.
And I know for sure that most times that I cried in church was when I had my period, so that was hormonal. I didn’t figure this out until I was almost 30, however. It was quite a shock when I realized it.
writerdd: I have experienced the same cry in church or not!:-j It’s interesting to me that I have been where you are for years in my life, and then found the Lord, and you said you knew Him, and then realized He wasn’t real. The thing that stands out to me most I suppose is that you guys are saying He isn’t real because of lack of evidence. He has shown Himself to me over and over on such a personal level that I could never deny His existence. There is no lack of evidence for me. I’ve really enjoyed chatting with you guys!
I’m with writerdd on this topic. Saying that you’re 100% certain that there is no God is falling into the same trap that fundamentalist Christians\Muslims and fanatics do where they become so certain that they are right that they stop listening to the arguments.
Richard Dawkins uses a ranking system from 1 to 7 (1 being an absolute certainly of God existing and 7 an absolute certainty of no God existing) and places himself at a 6. This is right where I am as well.
For what it’s worth I have never known an Atheist say that they were absolutely convinced of an absence of the supernatural without clarifying it to say that evidence that comes to light may well change their mind in the future. If anyone did say that nothing could change their mind then I’d have to argue with them until they accepted the possibility (no matter how remote) of being wrong. I mean, it is possibly that the oxygen atoms in the room I’m sitting in will all move to the top right corner and I’ll suffocate. I don’t think it’s very likely but the possibility does exist.
Gods Gal, this evidence that you talk about? I assume that it is all personal and anecdotal? Perhaps you prayed for something and it came to pass? If the supernatural evidence can be quantified, measured and repeated then it ceases to be supernatural and merely becomes unusual and mysterious. Science explains the mysterious all the time.
hoverfrog: Why would I want or need to explore and listen to arguments when I have the certainty of my God? To me it is much a much more fullfilling life to KNOW for certain than to spend it wandering from theory to theory……My God gives me and my family and thousands upon thousands of others everything we could ever want or need or desire far above what we could ask or think. I’ve been on your side of things, I’m just relaying what I’ve found to be truth in my life, same as you are doing. I concede that there is a huge amount of mystery where my Lord is concerned….if there wasn’t, He wouldn’t be God….the need to explain everything is not in me, I simply give Him the credit for it all. I really hope the oxygen atoms stay put, but if not are you really prepared to die knowing that you yourself are only 99% right?
@Bill
Actually, I’ve never heard an atheist say that they were 100% sure about anything, and especially not about the non-existence of god. I, myself, am open to the possibility that I may be proven wrong and that there may be a god of some sort. However, I find the likelihood so insignificant, that it doesn’t factor into my thinking.
For me, an analogy would be like: deciding whether to include winning the lottery as part of my financial plan contingencies when the fact is I never buy any lotto tickets. Those odds are vanishingly small.
You can look up two terms that might clarify this:
“strong atheism” - positive assertion that there is no god
and
“weak atheism”-lack of belief in a god due to lack of evidence (probably describes most atheists)
It’s a subtle, but important difference.
I’m a blend of both and I think many others are, too. I’m “strong” with respect to Zeus and Jehova and weak on generic deistic-type, universe makers.
Bill,
As HoverFrog notes, even the (in)famous posterboy for non-friendly atheism Richard Dawkins doesn’t say he’s 100% sure.
This is usually where we get beaten up by believers.
“You can’t know 100% there is no God…that’s a faith position! That makes you as fundamentalist as the fundamentalists you criticize.”
“Okay,” sez the atheist “I’m 99% certain, but evidence of the existence of the supernatural would change my mind.”
“AHA” says the pushy believer, “So you READILY ADMIT that you could be wrong on this? Are you willing to risk eternal damnation on your own admittedly possibly wrong beliefs?!?! Well, huh, areyuh?”
Give an inch, and they take a light year. Refuse to give an inch and you get criticized for intolerant closed-mindedness.
As I’ve said before on Hemant’s forum.. “If you’re gonna attack people who are 100% sure and consider the God/noGod question completely and finally settled, you’d find a heckuva lot more of them on the Christian side of the fence.”
Wow…good comment, Siamang. That one is gonna have me thinking for a long long time.
I wonder…why do you guys think it’s Christians that consider the God/noGod question completely and finally settled.
Also, if a Christian does have that mentality, does that close the doors of communication? Does it create barriers to conversation between believers/unbelievers?
How does a person stand firm in his/her belief/non belief in God and still maintain the ability to have this type of conversation?
My answer: Absolutely. You provide real evidence and I’ll change my mind. Pull an Elijah vs. Baal, and I’ll convert on the spot. ^:)^
So let’s see it, where is it, you do have the evidence don’t you?
No?
OK, well, let me know when you do. :-c :-h
YES.
@Bill:
I would direct you to God Gal’s last comment @ 12:25pm. Besides, doesn’t Jehova demand that you believe in him? There’s no compunction on an atheist to disbelieve in god. But, I think JC would be pretty upset if you ceased to believe he’s still alive.
That’s actually a subject of occasional debate. Why debate someone who has no intention of ever changing their mind? The only real conversation that can take place between immovable objects and irresistable forces are for the goal of mutual respect and agreeable disagreement. That, I think, is really humanity’s only hope in general; to stop reaching for an uzi every time you think someone is wrong.
“AHA” says the pushy believer, “So you READILY ADMIT that you could be wrong on this? Are you willing to risk eternal damnation on your own admittedly possibly wrong beliefs?!?! Well, huh, areyuh?”
Siamang: I have had no intention of beating up anyone and don’t believe I have, if anything, I have been a bit beaten because of what I believe….Your translation of what I was saying earlier is not accurate because it lacks the respect and heart behind my statement. I don’t consider myself a pushy believer I am simply answering questions from what I believe in my heart to be true. I’m truly sorry if you have been treated this way by believers, but it was not and will not be from me. I do not believe in anything but the living God as my personal Lord and Savior, that is my position, it’s not to put anyone else down, it’s simply the path I’ve chosen for my life.
Bill, I think most Christians have been taught there is a God since the day they were born, so it’s a basic part of their worldview and they have never even thought about the idea that God might not exist. Even the non-Christians they knew (Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc.), believe in some sort of diety. I would imagine that few Christians have actually met an atheist, because in so many places atheists do not feel free to come out. So very few Americans are exposed to the fact that not everyone believes in God, especially at a young age.
The truth is, if you were born in a place where you weren’t taught about God, but you did learn science, chances are you would not need to make up a God concept. Early humans probably made up deities to explain the way the world worked because they didn’t know anything about nature. The most obvious example of such a God-invention is Thor throwing his lightning bolts down from the clouds, but there are many other examples.
A lot are afraid of hell or other things, too. So they can’t doubt or they might backslide and go to hell. I was always afraid of going to hell or becoming a drug addict or a prostitute, or some kind of “major” sinner, if I let myself slip. None of that happened to me (although I guess hell is still a possibility, but I just don’t care as explained above).
If believers admit that they are believing by faith and that they don’t have proof, great. (Personally, I do not think faith is a virtue, but that’s another topic.) If they adopt a “this is good for me, but you find what works for you” attitude, great. But when they are so sure that they are right and everyone else is definitely wrong, then where is there room for conversation? If you think I am a lost sinner in need of salvation from myself or my humanity, where is room for conversation?
Skep -
If I did think that, why would that eliminate room for conversation? Couldn’t we just talk about what each of us believes and why?
A wise man once reminded me that people are people, not projects. I think that as long as I have that mindset, we can have all the disagreeing conversation we want.
My goal isn’t to change anyone. It will never be. I’m loving reading what everyone is saying on this site. Isn’t it crazy how we can all have such polar opposite opinions?
Polly: It’s not my job or anyone elses, especially on this blog to “prove” anything…we are just discussing here. The things that are proof to me of God’s exestence would not be proof to you so it is a mute point. It’s up to each individual to search out their own salvation. I realize there is no way to change minds, but as for having converstaion, I have had some very good conversation with writerrdd, hoverfrog, and some others, 3 days worth now. I think what Bill was trying to convay earlier was, why are we believers so believing and unswayed by other dieties? I suppose I am close minded where my Lord is concerned, I will never turn from Him, but I love to talk with people!
Writerdd: I don’t serve God because of fear or threats, He loved me to Himself and is my best friend. I didn’t grow up with God, I did go looking for other views, but when I found Him, I becamse complete….Again, I think you and I have had some good conversation regardless of the fact that I do feel the way you pointed out in your last couple of sentences.
God’s Gal wrote:
“Your translation of what I was saying earlier is not accurate because it lacks the respect and heart behind my statement. ”
A million pardons, God’s Gal! I absolutely wasn’t trying to represent you with that stereotype! That was in no way an attempt at a reformulation of what you were saying. When I said “pushy Christian says X”, I had in mind a Ray Comfort-like character, someone absolutely not like anyone here. I try to always listen with the most generous of interpretation, and I always try to write with that same spirit. Please forgive me that I wasn’t clear enough at the outset… I sometimes forget that I’m not as well known here, and people don’t know my shorthand style.
Yikes! Please don’t think I hold you in low regard! I don’t, and would never treat you like that. If I do EVER cross a line for you, PLEASE let me know.
-Siamang
Bill asked:
“How does a person stand firm in his/her belief/non belief in God and still maintain the ability to have this type of conversation?”
It’s a good question, and the answer I have come to is that I needed to stop trying to convince anyone of the correctness of my beliefs. Instead, I attempt to get people to better understand my current beliefs, my lifepath so far and my value as a person worthy of respect.
There’s so much *negative* junk floating around there (often among believers) of what non-believers think. It’s just not true! I pick up books in Christian bookstores sometimes, and pamphlets and stuff about “Proof for the Skeptic” or “God Doesn’t Believe in Atheists” or whatever… and that stuff is just junk. They really need to talk to a real atheist and get the scoop, because they’ve got some wierd Niztchian stereotype. They think atheists hate God, and are rebelling against their parents. They think we choose to live a sinful life and so deny God so that we can live as we please (which is a laugh if you knew me, tea-totalling faithful husband, father and family-man!).
So anyway, it helps, I think, just to be around and answer questions and attempt to help people understand who I am, what I believe and why I believe it. Hopefully the respect thing comes.
That’s for me the biggest change that this extended conversation has yielded. It’s a change in myself. I’m a much better contributor to the conversation now that I have a goal that both seeks respect and respects others.
“Isn’t it crazy how we can all have such polar opposite opinions?
vive la différence as they say in France. Wouldn’t life be awfully dull if we all believed the same thing?
Even if I’m right and you’re wrong.
Siamsang: Thank you for that, I think something gets lost in cyberspace!!! :)>- My purpose for contributing to this blog is to answer the questions asked based on my beliefs….not ram anything down anyones throat…that’s not me! I look forward to future blogging with you!!!
Hoverfrog: You crack me up!!! :d/
Back to the “I consider the question settled” idea…
I think it’s rather a badge of honor nowadays for atheists to say they don’t know for sure.
I think most non-believers think we’ve closed the door on the subject.
But anyway, atheists pride themselves on their open-mindedness. If you’re open-minded, you have to be open to all possibilities.
As others here have said, most of us atheists here are agnostic atheists: nonworshipping folks who don’t know if there is a god or not.
Check this link to a warm, self-depricating, humorous look at agnosticism. There’s a lot of love there, among the audience who at least humorously can sympathize with the sad predicament of being in the camp of people who don’t claim certainty.
http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2007/08/a_bone_for_the.html
@Siamang:
LOL! Good link!
Great discussion everyone, thanks for sharing all of your views so openly!
One last note. Bill asked, “If I did think that, why would that eliminate room for conversation? Couldn’t we just talk about what each of us believes and why?”
I just want to say, that I don’t want to waste my time talking to people who think I am some lost sinner who needs to be saved from myself. I am not a wretch needing to be rescued, and I would not want to be bothered hanging out with anyone who held me in such low regard as a human being.
Fortunately, no one here seems to have that attitude, at least from what I’ve read so far. I must say though, that I’m always a bit suspicious that in the back of their minds, Christians think I’m going to hell and are secretly praying for me. I find that distasteful and condescending.
So that’s it for me for now. Thanks again for a great discussion!
Siamang: In reading your last statement..about being open minded..I do have a question…i really am trying to understand your thinking on this…in being open-minded it sounds like you would be able to entertain the possiblity that there is One Living God? And a followup to that is, if the answer is yes…would you not be willing to follow up on that possibility and see if He’s real or not?
@writerdd: I could just let you reply and type ditto after each post. You have a tendency to say everything I’m thinking.
Actually, I’ve told my wife several times that I’m not out to deconvert her EXCEPT that I definitely DO WANT to change her mind about my final, fiery destination. She, of course, thinks I’m going to Hell. That’s the one thing about Christianity (and Islam) that I think really separates us at a fundamental level. When I was a Christian (and a literalist) that thought was always in the back of my mind. Not that I looked down on anyone, but I felt really bad for all the people around me. I would pray almost daily for the salvation of those around me and for those I hadn’t seen in years. It was a long list.
Hell’s a real downer.
Were you a fundy (like I was) or a “nice”-Christian?
I know a LOT about the Bible, but since deconverting I’ve learned a lot about Christianity. I used to think all the liberal Christians were just heretics. And I didn’t spend much time thinking about “alternative” interpretations. There’s so much more diversity than I expected and not just cults, either.
God’s Gal,
I have to say, I’ve been open and trying to follow up on that possibility all my life. I’ve also been “challenged” to pray, open my heart, confess myself, pray the sinner’s prayer, pray the lord’s prayer, etc. I have done these things.
It might help if you knew something about my life and my path, here’s my write-up on that:
http://off-the-map.org/ebayatheist/viewtopic.php?t=247
I used to believe that there was One Living God. I don’t anymore.
I have sat in stillness and in all emotional humility, quietly asked if God was real. I asked it again quite recently. I took some time to be quiet in my emotions, laid aside my pride, asked forgiveness for whatever transgressions I made in my ignorance, and calmly and clearly whispered the question into the darkness. I don’t know what else I can do. God, if He exists, seems to have decided that my path lies elsewhere. I can take that.
I sadly, however, have gotten the “you didn’t do it right” after reporting that I did indeed attempt to open my heart in prayer and actually got no response. I’ve also gotten “you’re closed off” and “you’re ignoring God’s call to you.” All I can say in response is, “I don’t have to answer to you. If God exists and is how you say He is, He knows my sincerity far more than you can… and I have to be okay with that, not you.”
In respecting you and my commitment to an open mind and open inquiry, I’ll ask what you have in mind…
A lot of atheists, I think, bend over backwards quite a bit, in the service of being fair and open. Hemant Mehta famously went to a large number of churches in an attempt to learn all he could and give Christianity the best shot he could.
I would ask you a question in response, though… If I were to convince you that my prayer and seeking was indeed sincere, and I still have no spiritual feelings, not even a tiny tickle in my heart of any feeling of God… What would that mean to your faith and your belief?
Would it have the possibility of convincing you that for whatever unknown reason, Christianity isn’t the perfect and achievable life-path for all people, even through no fault of their own?
I ask this, because I have had Christians tell me that this raised uncomfortable questions about their faith.
God’s Gal, some of us have been there and done that already. We looked for God and either didn’t find God or couldn’t get beyond “I don’t know”. Why go through that again? You maybe have heard the saying: “Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results”.
I think when atheists say they are open they mean, if something significantly new or different comes long then I will look into it.
That Christians are convinced of God’s existence is not new or different. The Bible is not new or different - it hasn’t changed in 2,000 years. Life experience is not new or different; people still suffer and even Christians generally admit that God has not answered some of their most heartfelt prayers.
I wish I hadn’t read the Left Behind series but since I did: the thing it gets right is that if something very dramatic like all Christians suddenly vanishing happened, many people would think about what happened and would reassess their beliefs/nonbeliefs. They are open to being convinced, should God decide to do something convincing. You may think he already has but others don’t feel that way.
Btw I’m interested in peoples’ responses to “Why do we see differently?”, posted on here today.
Something needs to change significantly to seriously open up that possibility
Inbetween, I guess. I was a Word of Faith Pentecostal. Most of the beliefs are built on the same foundation as the fundies but the experience is more important than the legalisism in most cases. Back in the 70s in New York (where I grew up), the evangelical churches were decidedly a-political and much more liberal than the fundy churches are today. I didn’t run into the right-wing politics married to evangelicalism until I moved to Tennessee in my 20s, and I was immediately turned off by that combination.
Gods Gal sounds a lot like I did and most of the Christians I knew at the time, explaining how her personal experiences seems like proof of God’s existence to her (although she hasn’t expalined how that experience proves that the God of the Bible or Christianity is ture and not Allah or one of any other Gods that people worship on this planet.)
@writerdd:
I’ve never known church or religion as separate from politics. Even fiscal conservativism appeared, to me, to be biblical.
Recently, my father-in-law told me that the sermon at church included an exhortation to respect and back the president of the US (whoever he may be), especially in wartime. I seriously doubt that sermon would’ve been given duting the Clinton admin.
Helen & writerdd: If you can look at everything around you, even your own body and including the universe….what exactly would it take for you to believe in Him? After giving all the He has and still not getting your attention…why should He do anymore? I’m really not being flip here…I just want to know, AND how do you explain our existence and what is our purpose?
God’s Gal, I don’t have a personal need for an explanation of our existence or for a stated ‘purpose’ for us.
I’m quite happy not to have either of those things.
I don’t see all those things you see that you said God has done for me; that’s why I posted today about ‘Why do we see differently?’
I’m not demanding that God do more; that’s up to God. All I’m saying is that all I know and have experienced does not get me further than “I don’t know if God exists”.
I don’t feel like I’m missing out by not having a personal relationship with God. If God wants to try to change my mind about that, then I don’t have a problem with him doing that. Maybe he’ll succeed.
Let’s see, Gods Gal, if the rapture occurs I’ll believe. If every time someone prayed for healing, they were immediately healed - including people who had limbs amputated and they regrew, and if it only worked for born-again Christians, but not for Catholics, Muslims or Jews or Hindus, and if it was tested in double-blind studies with consisten results, I would probably become born again again. If every alcoholic who became born-again never took a drink again, but all the alcholics who did not become born again died from drinking, that might be something to think about as well.
That kind of thing. Hard, concrete evidence that worked every time. No excuses that some people are not healed “God works in mysterious ways” (where’s that in the Bible anyway), or “this person didn’t have enough faith” or any of that kind of excuse.
I forgot who said it, but if rabbit fossils were found in the pre-cambrian, I would consider the idea that creation was true, rather than evolution.
All of the “evidence” that I see people claiming is very subjective an anecdotal. None of it is reproduceable or testable, therefore it is not evidence. Getting healed of a headache doesn’t count. Headaches go away on their own. Even cancer often goes into remission. Seeing a vision doesn’t count. It could just as easily be a hallucination. And so forth.
Do you see the difference between personal experience and hard evidence?
I don’t believe faith is a good thing, so I would not beleive — ever — if it requird faith. I think that believing without evidence (and that’s how faith is defined in the Bible), is very dangerous and leads to people making very bad decisions for themselves and for society as a whole.
Siamang: I am truly sorry that you had that experience….I just don’t understand people sometimes. I never base my walk on my feelings tho. Ever. They are usually not accurate to what is truly happening. If you were praying to God and truly seeking Him, I believe He heard you, and who’s to say you are not saved? I still hold that if you want Him He’s there….He’s real, and loves us more than we can possibly understand. Again, I am sorry you were told those things…..every one is different, every experience is different..no one should compare…But to answer you questions, no, I still believe with all of my heart that God is the right way for all of humanity…
Helen: I really do understand what you are saying….I just don’t agree…sorry if struck a nerve, it was not my intention. I really appreciate your blog today!!!!
writerdd: so what I’m getting from your entry is that if you saw all of the miracles, and we lived in a perfect world with no ill effects then you would believe in God? In my 15 years of walking with Him, I have seen miracle after miracle done in people I know and don’t know. In His name. Also my life is quite a testimony to Him as well. I have seen the evidence, they are either dead or man-made so what good would they do me?
Hello Gods Gal,
Friendlyatheist
put out a questionnaire addressing those very same questions and many more.
Check it out. There were over 80 responses.
As far as our purpose goes: My view is that we have no purpose beyond the ones that we give ourselves. We aren’t here for any “reason” or to accomplish something that someone else beyond us wants. We just are: like the ants that build their mounds or the sloth, we are just another example of the dynamic interaction of Carbon, oxygen, and nitrogen when combined to form DNA.
Scientists have theorized that the universe grew out of a singularity, possibly due to a fluctuation in the quantum foam - the tiny shifting of space at extremely small spaces - far smaller than the nucleus of an atom.
I realize that this is probably less than satisfying. But, for me, it’s wondrous and beautiful. I get elated when I think about the vastness and complexity of the universe.
I cannot imagine that the god of the bible would even comprehend the beautiful, subtle complexity of diversity. Rather, he seems to want to “flatten every mountain and raise every valley” and “make every path straight.” And eliminate the oceans! (Revelation 21:1)
I don’t think the god mentioned in the bible appreciates the complexity of life. He seemed to think that just preserving specimens of each animal on Noah’s ark would preserve the species and allow them to thrive once they were released onto a dead and barren world where whole ecological niches were destroyed, thus making it impossible for most of those species to survive. On top of it, he still wanted extras so that they could be sacrificed to him! A world with hardly any animals left and he still wants to waste a few more!
The stars are described in various places as falling or being thrown down from the sky onto the Earth. I don’t think the bible-god understood that those points of light are far bigger than earth, and in some cases, bigger than our solar system.
When I compare what we’ve learned about nature to what I see in the bible, it seems like the bible’s version of nature is cartoonish, flat, and disposable. I get a far greater appreciation for nature by studying nature, itself(non-professionally).
Sorry for the long post.
Gods Gal,
I’m still curious about your reaction to what I wrote above.
You also asked:
“If you can look at everything around you, even your own body and including the universe….what exactly would it take for you to believe in Him?”
I answered this with a (semi-rhetorical) question above: “Remember, God is proported to be a SUPERnatural thing. And yet when people say “look there’s proof of God all around you” they always point to natural things. Why is that?
“I know natural things exist. Where’s the evidence of the supernatural? Why do christians think that the existence of natural things automatically implies the existence of the supernatural?”
I’d pose it non-rhetorically to you now, since you bring up the subject again. You seem to presume that the existence of the natural is proof of the supernatural… is that true, and if so, why?
You asked:
“…what exactly would it take for you to believe in Him?”
All it would take would be a feeling in my heart. I’d like your reaction to the fact that I feel no such feeling.
“AND how do you explain our existence and what is our purpose?”
I find “purpose” a loaded question that means nothing to me. Does everthing have a purpose imbued in it upon its birth into the world? You seem to believe that we do. I don’t. What’s the “purpose” of a mountain? What’s the “purpose” of the Andromeda galaxy or the planet Neptune?
My “purpose” is what purposes I make my life to be as a thinking, caring person. So my personal purpose is to love my wife and raise my daughter, to care for my fellow human beings, to be a good citizen and a loving role model, and to try to leave the world a little better than I found it.
How to explain our existence? We exist. If we didn’t, we wouldn’t be asking the question.
Now, are you asking how physically we come to exist? That’s a natural, biological process. It’s the same process that makes mountains and moles, stars and starfish.
The thing is, if I thought that Christianity had more compelling and more likely to be true answers for these questions, I’d be a Christian. You won’t like my answers and I don’t like the answers Christianity provides as they don’t seem like answers at all.
I ask of you, what’s Christianity’s answer for why God exists? How do you explain the existence of God? Why does God exist? Was there a time when He didn’t exist? Who made God?
Next I would ask you, what’s God’s purpose? When God wakes up in the morning, what does He need? When will God have achieved His purpose in life? Will He die when He achieves it?
I’d like to see your answers to these questions, as they really are the same questions you asked of me.
“Why do we exist?” and “What do we do with the time we have?” are two very old and very foundational questions that we all must ask. One reason I’m not drawn to religious philosophy is that as I see it, believers don’t ask these questions, they instead pass the hot-potato to God.
“Why do we exist?”: God made us. “What do we do with the time we have?”: Serve God.
If you ask “why does God exist?” the answer frequently comes back: It’s a mystery. If you ask “what did God do for the infinity of time before He made man?” the answer comes back: It’s a mystery. If you ask the same questions we ask about our purpose and our existence to God’s purpose and existence, the answer always seems to come back, “It’s a mystery.”
The idea from one point of view is that Christians have answers that atheists don’t. But from my point of view, Christians just pass the buck, and say that any further questions they “surrender to the mystery of God.” Why not just “surrender to the mystery of life” instead of claiming Christianity has answered the big questions?
God’s gal,
I see you’ve written a response to my earlier post since I penned my most recent post. Thanks!
God’s Gal, I might believe that God existed f I saw pysical concrete evidence as I listed. I also don’t see how an all powerful, all loving God could allow such evil and pain to eist in the world. Either he has the power to stop such things and he won’t, or he doesn’t have the power to stop them and he is not powerful. Nothing else makes sense. If God allows the Devil to exist and do these things, than God is complicit in the evil himself.
I don’t think I would serve the God of the Bible even if I thought he was real. The God described in the Bible is mean and vindictive and, frankly, immoral. I also could not enjoy being in heaven knowing that other people were burning in hell for all eternity. The idea of that is just disgusting to me.
I posted this in another thread, but I guess it is worth repeating, because this is how I passionately feel about the God that is portrayed in the Bible:
Gods Gal, I really wish you would read this article I wrote, because it answers all of the questions you keep asking over and over again. It’s not a blog, it’s just a short article I wrote a while back to answer these exact questions. The link is in comment #51. I can’t post the whole thing here because it’s too long for a blog comment.
I am a Christian. What happens if I am wrong? Nothing. I die. The world goes on as it always has - with all the suffering, injustice, violence, greed, etc. - and eventually humankind will likely kill itself off, whether from nuclear war, global warming, bio-weapons, or some combination of the above. This may sound cynical, but if I’m wrong about God existing, then I really have no reason to hope that we will ever actually find a way to overcome the evil inherent in human societies and human individuals. If I’m wrong, my guess is that injustice “wins” in the end. My belief in God is my primary reason for hoping that maybe, just maybe, the story of humanity is headed towards a good ending and not a tragic one.
You know, as I go back and look at Bill’s original question, I think we’ve all been answering it wrong. He didn’t ask “What happens if you’re wrong?” (as in, “what happens when you die”). He asked “What if you’re wrong?” That could be taken more in the sense of “Would you live differently if you thought you had been wrong?” or alternatively “Are you willing to admit the possibility that you could be wrong? And if so, does that possibility change how you hold your current beliefs and what you do about them?”
To answer the second question first - yes, I absolutely am willing to admit that I could be wrong about God’s existence. I think there’s a good possibility that I am. Because I understand why some people don’t believe in God and can see that as a valid and viable option, it causes me to hold my own beliefs with a little more humility and not condemn those who disagree with me as “stupid” or “misguided” or “sinful” or even “hell bound”. It means that I try to hold my beliefs in a way that does not exclude or drive away others who don’t share them.
As for the first question: if I thought I had been wrong about God’s existence, if I became convinced that she didn’t exist, I think I would live differently. I hope I would still be a good person, but I think I might not be so quick to live so self-sacrificially. I would try to do good, but I would also want to make sure that I’m getting as much enjoyment out of life as I can and perhaps would not be so quick to make economic or lifestyle sacrifices for the sake of justice if they were going to inconvenience me and my enjoyment of life too greatly. After all, if this life is all we get, and injustice is unavoidable anyway, what good will it do for me to suffer alongside the poor and oppressed? Shouldn’t at least one of us be happy? Maybe that’s callous, but I don’t know whether I could avoid thinking that way if I thought this life was all I got.
Hi Polly, don’t apologize for a long post!!! Good stuff…ok I’m getting a contradiction here if you could explain if for me…most of the posts say they don’t believe in God because of lack of evidence. Needing evidence seems to be a common ground here….so that being said, where did it all come from? It’s easier for people to believe it just happened and we have no purpose than for them to believe in a loving God that does have a purpose and a plan? It’s not happening fast enough, or the way we think He should do things so therefore He doesn’t exist? I’m struggling with that line of thinking as much you do with mine I guess….I think it’s wonderful tho that such polar opposites can have such great discussion!!!!:)>-
Thanks God’s Gal
Siamang: The heartfelt experiences that you are asking about, that feeling that you need? That is the supernatural. There is no other creation that can touch you the way God does. i think the reason people say “He’s a mystery” ( I had to giggle at that, I’ve said that) is because we openly admit that we can’t explain everything about Him. When I think about that being a requirement in order for someone to believe in Him, I just think what kind of God would that be? If the human mind could wrap around every part of Him, how big of a God would that be? Not one big enough to speak things into existence??? One thing I’m talking about here is that He just is…always has been….always will be. I don’t understand it, but in seeking Him I know it to be true, I can’t even explain that!!! Ok, you asked me why we exist and what do we do with the time we have? Well, ok here goes. God doesn’t need anything, or anyone….eek…I know…but He doesn’t. The fact that you don’t believe in Him, will not change the fact that He exists and is who He says He is. Some people tend to pick out scripture here and scripture there and without study of the WHOLE thing, not just parts they make their judgment call…As I have studied Gods word as a whole, both old and new testaments I’ve come to understand how it all relates to eachother and how detrimental it can be to pick it apart and use one or two “for instances”. But, it’s a process. You don’t give your heart to Him and open yourself up to Him and expect to know every cosmic mystery the next day. The most important thing to know is, He is perfect, in every way, in His love, His wisdom, His guidelines and bounderies and His justice. That’s where faith comes in. Believing in the unseen, and the unknown, that’s when things begin to change and you see things with a new perspective. I can’t even explain that it just happens. I’ll tell you what I do know tho…I believe in eternity, I believe we’re here for Him, to spend that eternity with Him, and while I don’t know what I’ll be doing there…I know I get a skip in my spirit when I think about it and can’t wait til it happens. God hasn’t turned His back on humanity, it’s the other way around. This world will come to an end, and when the “New Heaven and New Earth” are formed…I know people are sqirming right now, but I was asked, it will be the way it was suppose to be initially…that’s why I enjoy spending time with Him. He gives you little nuggets to chew on and prepare you for things to come. I hope answered a little bit of your question, if not, feel free to re direct….:)
writer dd: He does have the power, and it will stop. I don’t see how you can say God condones such horrific things…Not the God I serve….
You are getting Him mixed up with satan..In your mind you have made Him a God of no power, authority or compassion and I don’t agree with you on that. The evil you describe comes from satan, and yes it’s being allowed right now….again, everyone in the world want God out of everything, ie. schools, government, no more prayer….yet then turn around and blame Him when things go so horribly wrong and turn evil. Amazing to me. Regardless of how out of control it seems, He is in total control and in His time…it will end.
Hello Gods Gal,
Actually, my long winded response was not about why I don’t believe. I should have made this clear, but I was explaining how I look at nature and the universe and not see god.
Hmm…but, my post does look like an argument about god’s existence. I didn’t intend that. I have no desire to try to convince you that you’re wrong. If “He” works for you, fantastic. :d/
@Mike C,
You seem to have put real thought into the question. I like that you didn’t say you’d become an axe murderer!
Which seems to be a common assumption about what happens if there’s no god-belief.
I’m going to speak only for myself, in this reply.
There’s a lot of truth to what you’re saying about being hesitant to engage in self-sacrfice. I am more likely, now, to carefully weigh my “investments” of time and money, whereas before, I would simply tithe and say to myself “I’m giving to god, so it’s all good.” Now, I need a real return - in terms of good done - on my money. And, yes, it takes a lot more increase in benefit to the other person for me to want to give ’til it hurts. Basically, the price for my donation dollar went up.
But, I don’t think this necessarily makes society worse off. I think it can actually make charities more accountable and more efficient. Mindless giving to church (again, I am only talking about myself; in the past)wasn’t so great for society at large anyway.
An offset, though, is that now that I think each person is on their own, I feel a greater responsibility to help them. I’ve become slightly less fiscally conservative than I was before.
I am also less likely to risk my life, either to help a stranger or for fun. But, a big part of this also has to do with my responsibility to do what I can to prevent my wife from becoming a widow.
Thanks Polly. I’m appreciate hearing your perspective.
Just to clarify tho’, I’m not really talking about giving money to the church. I’m talking about justice and compassion for the poor and oppressed. If I thought that my sacrifices in this life very likely would not have any long term or eternal impact on actually defeating injustice and making the world a better place (and without God I really am just too cynical to believe that good wins in the end), I don’t think I would be willing to sell my house and move into the inner city as some of my friends are doing and as I hope to do soon. I don’t know if I would be willing to go to Iraq with a Peacemaker Team (as I would love to do if I didn’t have responsibilities to my wife and daughter). I don’t think I’d be willing to live on the tiny salary I make now if I didn’t think it served a higher purpose.
Again, for me it’s not really about mindlessly giving to church, or even really about giving to charities. It’s about my entire lifestyle of justice and generosity and whether I would be willing to do it if I thought that it might not do any good long term anyway.