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In this post, my friend hoverFrog asked a question:
I have another question Bill, if you don’t mind. What purpose does prayer have? It’s a general question for believers and non-believers alike and I think that you might be surprised by some of the responses from non-believers.
I found myself asking the same question last weekend. Many times I’ll start to pray, only to become frustrated to the point of quitting no more than 5 minutes later. I can very easily convince myself that there’s no point to praying…
It’s funny, though, that whenever I truly do put forth an honest effort into my prayer life, I always see God work in incredible ways.
I’m really curious to hear what you guys have to say. Do me a favor - send people the link to this post and ask them to comment. There’s typically a serious shortage of [tag]Christians [/tag](at least those who comment) on this site, so please encourage each other to speak up.
http://www.friendlychristian.com/index.php/why-bother-praying/
What’s the purpose/point of prayer?
Popularity: 4% [?]
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Really, a shortage of Christians? I hadn’t noticed. Could it be that many are put off by the confrontational aspect of blogging about their faith in a public forum?
Anyway, on to the question at hand, and a wonderfully thought provoking and intelligent question it is as well.
To my reason driven and faithless mind I would equate prayer with an internal dialogue useful for ordering a person’s thought processes. Some people pray, some meditate, some sit down with a cup of tea and doodle. Prayer (to me) is simply a method to question yourself as to your own motivations and to give yourself time to sort out your thoughts. Furthermore prayer contains something of a ritual to it that is often comforting to those taking part. Just as counting to 10 can be calming so can prayer.
I’m hoping (praying) that Christians will agree with me in part on this. I doubt if you will agree completely though.
If God is omnipotent and all-loving, how is prayer supposed to work? Surely He would know what needed to be done and do it automatically.
If you believe that God acts on prayer, then doesn’t that lead you to thought that there are times when He knows that someone needs help and yet fails to intervene?
Matt, I think of it like this…God “may” be thinking, “Yeah, I could totally take care of that Tam, BUT do you have faith enough to ask me?”
I don’t believe God fails to intervene, on my behalf, on anything. When I don’t see something come to pass that I have prayed about I consider it may not have either been the right time - or the best possible answer for that time. And I put my trust in a God who can see far beyond what I can and, who I believe because of that, He knows what is best for me.
I don’t always give my kiddos what they ask for. And I am loving. Often times their dad and I have protected them from danger and they didn’t even know it…and still don’t. There’s just a bigger picture out there we cannot see.
So why pray? For me… because it is my way of communicating God that I trust Him.
Prayer, if done “correctly” can provide some mental health benefits, I think. Quieting the mind and focusing on something bigger than oneself and one’s problems can reduce or eliminate stress while helping to gain perspective - the big picture. Christians would relate this as “Praising God for his creation, goodness, etc”
OTOH, speaking aloud one’s concerns, fears, problems forces the mind to organize thoughts and ideas which can lead to insights and even solutions. Before speaking, your “heart” may just be a jumble of mixed up negative emotions, but having to form sentences and paragrpahs, corrals all these impulses into a coherent description of your current state viz-a-viz whatever your concern is.
Prayer is often coupled with fasting in religions, including Christianity.
I think fasting also has benefits. My mind is usually much sharper when I reduce or eliminate consumption for SHORT durations, (no more than a couple of days).
As I’ve described it above, prayer isn’t very different from meditation, though I realize they’re considered separate disciplines to Christians.
Now, I’ll put on my atheist hat. If you’re praying to get something from god, I can’t see the point. He will do whatever he wants and will not change his mind for you. If he doesn’t love you enough to do good to you unless you ask him (repeatedly), then why would he be good enough to help you at all? Only selfish people make you beg for their assistance when it’s well within their power to help you.
for me-it all comes down to a love relationship. Prayer is conversing with the one I love about everything not just my wants and desires. God is not a genie. When my prayer life is not at its best, then I must ask HIM what is coming between us that is keeping me less focused.
When I love someone, I want to spend time with them, and know as much as I can about that person, it interests me. I care what they think, and I want to please them. Its the same for me with God. Believing HIM not just that HE exists is what pleases HIM.
I’ll be back later to read all that you can throw at me, but for now the Big Yellow Bus is calling me…the almighty dollar is driving me at the moment…
I will be talking to God and about this conversation…maybe HE can shed some light on it for me.=d>Good question Hover!
The word praying or prayer probably freaks people out as much as the word Christian. My Heavenly Father wants me to have a relationship with Him every bit if not more than my earthly father does. In order for me to have a healthy relationship with my Dad, here, I need to communicate to him. I tell him about my day, what my hopes and dreams are, then I take time to listen to what he has to say, and advice he may have. He has been around alot longer, so he knows and he knows me inside and out, so I listen to what he has to say.
Same applies to my Heavenly Father. My “prayer” time consists of alot more than a grocery list of items I would like to have. Being a musician, it includes alot of worship, asking questioning, and quiet time to listen. I find that when my petitions out weigh my praise, it just is not as effective. Prayer keeps the lines of communication open with my Lord, He enjoys our time together as much as I do, and wants His kids to talk with Him about their day.
I just tried to post an entry and got the following “warning”:
“You are posting comments too quickly. Slow down.”
Ack! Is God trying to send me a message? I quickly checked outside but didn’t see any thunderbolts.
I will try again. T….h…i…s t….i….m…e m…o….r….e s…l…o…w…l….y.
(I hope it doesn’t post twice)
I think Polly says it best for us atheist when it comes to benefits of prayer/meditation:
“Quieting the mind and focusing on something bigger than oneself and one’s problems can reduce or eliminate stress while helping to gain perspective - the big picture.”
My perception is that for Christians what Tam says works:
“So why pray? For me… because it is my way of communicating God that I trust Him.”
One the reasons I began turning away from God is that when I was struggling to find my way in life I found the answers I needed by using reason and logic. My prayers to God did not help me.
As other have said, I think prayer is effective is relaxing the person saying the prayer and helping them see life in a positive way. This is why in blind studies prayer has no effect but if people are aware of the prayers sometimes they can help.
After I read this post I saw this comic. Funny timing.
http://cectic.com/051.html
@HappyNat
tee hee
I have found in the last year or so that meditation is extremely helpful, I was going to describe why but Polly said it so well.
I believe this is the same effect that prayer has.
Prayer is a christian word for meditation. It’s not for god, it’s for people. Yes/No/Wait are possible answers to any question that could ever be asked. Prayer just means that god gets the glory for the good coincidences in life and his “will” gets the blame for bad ones. Those of us who understand the illusion of prayer experience infinitely less disappointment and unworthy feelings by taking responsibility for our own lives and futures.
Stacy, obviously you know very little about what I as a Christian believe prayer to be. I don’t believe in coincidences, nor to I blame God’s will for bad things that may happen. I actually experience very little disappointment in my life, in fact it’s over the top on the scale. I also have zero unworthy feelings since I know who I truly am and the One who made me in the first place. I choose to talk to Him and get His wisdom on decisions in my life, and also praies Him in the good AND the bad. Just wanted to clear that up… :d/
Stacy, when you were a Christian did you struggle in your prayer life?
Hi, I am new to the page and to the blogging world as well. I found this link on Tam’s page. I am interested in this discussion because I believe in prayer. I used to think it was just a ritual that “Christians” do because it was one of the rules but as I have gotten older, I see it as far more. For me, talking to God (prayer) is about getting to know Him. I talk to Him and He talks back! I have seen Him answer prayers time and time again.
one example is early on in my marraige we were having financial problems.. I mean we needed clothes for my infant daughter and had no means to get them. We prayed that GOd would help us… that day, a complete stranger came up to my husband on the sidewalk outside of his job and handed him $50. The guy said this “God told me to give this to you for your little girl.”
I would have thought it was merely a coincidence but it happened 3 times over the next year…different random people.
Anyhow, I just wanted to give my two cents!;)
Prayer for me is a way to keep my relationship with God strong. If I went a long time without praying, it would be like going a long time without calling a friend. The relationship suffers and you feel distant. Prayer shouldn’t be about constantly asking for things. It should be about asking for guidance and trusting God to show you the way. Some of you have commented that you use a form of prayer in order to figure things out…I don’t trust that I am smart enough, logical enough, or focused enough to “pray” and come up with my own answer that would in any way help me. This isn’t to say I don’t struggle with prayer. I have the same question many people do. If I am praying for something and God answers my prayer, does that mean it wasn’t going to happen if I didn’t pray about it? God’s all knowing right, so he already knew what was in my heart? There’s a lot of questions I have but I have faith in the power of prayer.
@ GG: How exactly is his wisdom revealed to you if you don’t take daily coincidences into consideration? I’m glad you’re so toothy grin happy, but the fact is you’re probably an anomaly. If the occasion did arise that you experienced something bad, what would you think caused it? God? Satan? Lack of faith? (that’s not a rhetorical question, I really want to know).
@ Tam: I didn’t believe in prayer when I WAS a christian. There’s the issue (from a theist mindset) of free will vs. predestination and an all-knowing God that I was never able to make jibe in my mind. I also could never figure out how I could arrogantly pray for some boy to ask me out or for god to save me from a bad choice i had made when other people were praying for a blessing that would put food in their childrens’ mouths the next day or for god to put an end to a war that was ravaging their country.
Stacy…I understand what you’re saying here, totally:)
God is not my personal genie. I don’t spend my time asking Him for a bunch of wants either. I do , however, love to converse with Him. Ask Him for direction and clarity in the day ahead, not only for me but for others as well.
I don’t pray for my kids to have a safe day at school. I pray that whatever may happen this day (because I don’t what’s coming) that they would have the wisdom, strength and courage to face it. I don’t pray that they will ace their math test. I pray that they walk in their with confidence and a clear mind so that they can focus and put into practice what they have studied and already know.
So my personal approach to prayer is different than most.
We’ve talked on this before…He is trying to prevent it….some people just refuse to listen or try to reach out to Him. There’s nothing He can do without that first step.
Putting God above people has the reverse effect for a believer. When my son almost died, it was a huge lesson for me. I literally ended up (It’s a long story) placing him on an altar (in my heart, I didn’t go build and altar) and gave him to the Lord. I believed more in God’s power to heal than the circumstance he was in….and He came through for us. To the point of making doctors scratch their heads. I put my love for God over the love I had for my son, and was able to let go so He could work. Same with unsaved friends and family, I let them go so God can work.
Stacy: Yes I am toothy grin happy :d and make no apologies for it. Hmmm, as far as experiencing something bad, let’s see, I was a sexually abused child until I was a young teen. I sent myself into a spiral of drug abuse, and was beat to a pulp more times than I can remember by my ex-husband. I killed two of my children throug abortion, and one of my other children almost died in his early teens by an unknown staff infection…would you like me to go on? I am capable to have my toothy grin now because of One God, who delivered me and set my feet firmly on Him. Everything is now a tool for me to witness to others because of Him, and has been very effective in helping people change their lives. I don’t blame Him for any of it and include Him in all of it. It amazes me how people can remove Him from all situations EXCEPT when they want to try and explain evil and bad in world. Then, oh, why would God do such a thing. I doubt you could call me an anomaly since there are thousands upon thousands of others with similar stories…oh, and it all started with a prayer…..:d
GG: not to sound crass, but your life history makes it very clear why you “have” god now. You’re right, there ARE countless stories like yours, and many of them end with god and toothy grins…there has to be something in life to make us feel better about about moving on after killing babies and dealing with the guilt/anger we feel when we are/were violated in any way.
I was never sexually abused, nor have I killed any of my children, nor have I been addicted to drugs. I do share a history of spousal abuse with you, though. I was like you at one point in my life, when I felt that god was showing me how to use the abuse (and other things I’ve been thru that aren’t on your list) to witness to others how amazing the blood of christ can be. Some (you, christians in general) will eternally attribute that to god. Others (me and others I’m sure) will take the stance (that you may take as self-aggrandizing) of giving ourselves credit for the progress we’ve made and our deep love for humanity and attribute it all to personal strength (even if god was given the credit previously).
I don’t personally need god, and I know this because I was the same in my “witnessing” as I am as a human helping another human, save for the the word “christ” in my oratories.
Tam:
I think of the same things every day, and perhaps instead of vocally praying that I’ve done what I am supposed to do in equipping my children to face the world, I just ruminate on what I’ve said to them and am confident that they’ll make good choices. When they don’t, I look inward for what I missed, and I look in retrospect to get their 5 and 10 year old perspectives on whatever they were faced with.
I like your style.
Exactly Stacy…same here. But where we differ ( I say that respectfully ) is although I entrust my children to God every second - it gives me that much more peace to know He goes with them when I cannot.
The bible says that each of His children have been appointed angels. I love that! Whether you or anyone else buys it - I love it!:)>-
Bottom line though, whatever I have instilled in my children it is still up to them to choose to put it into practice…and i pray all the time that they will…
[-o<
Stacy, I have to interrupt here. Many on this site already know that I, too, have had abortions when I was a teenager. I was in utter misery until I realized and accepted the peace and forgiveness that God was waiting for me to see was being handed to me. So my healing began with God and also, like GG, ended with a toothy grin. That is not a sign of weakness but proof, of God in me, a transformation taking place that I was unable to come to for years on my own.
Just thought I’d share my story on that too
Hey Stace, I don’t offend easily or I wouldn’t be here so don’t worry about sounding crass…
I’m not, I assure you always a toothy grin! In fact today I was sharing with a friend in an earlier post I was actually crying for a friend as I was snapping the little icons up and not even understanding why, until she explained it to me…..
Anyway, the reason I have God now is because I came to the end of self. I chose Him, even challenged Him to show me He was real, and He did. True to His word, He brought everything around for good and His glory. I don’t ever think I will ever understand how one can say they have experienced God, yet turned from Him. It baffles me. I could no longer turn my back on Him than I could my husband or children. But, in spite of all that, I won’t deny His power in my life, or not give credit where credit is due.
There is alot of pain on this site…I choose to follow the One who turns it around…
There truly are some wonderful examples of humanity here. I hope that each ’side’ can appreciate how helpful (to them personally) their differing beliefs are and so have just a tad more tollerance for the basic concepts they hold as ‘true’ in themselves?.
On topic - Jesus made it very clear to his followers how to Pray (and fast - Matt 6:5-18)
When reading those lines remember that Jesus speaks often here in ‘parable/symbolism’ and that it may not be all that easy to read as it was quoted the way it was meant - it takes a little ‘effort’ on your part.
Jesus also gives us this advice - pray as if what you ask for has already been granted you as your Father in Heaven knows what you have need of before you ask it.
He also knows that sometimes what you truly need is not what you are asking for!
Be careful what you wish for - you just might Get it!
I believe genies are famous for granting what you wish for and it turning out to be utter disaster - or ‘hell’ for you.
To those of you who claim allegiance solely to your own intellect and what ‘the Universe’ may throw your way:
Are you strong or wise enough to give yourself what you need even if it hurts you?
…or will you leave that up to ‘God’?
I think any time spent in quiet contemplation can be beneficial, provide a more conducive atmosphere for the brain to resolve conflicts/absorb new data/test ‘faulty’ thinking.
Many Christians will pray as a requirement to follow their God more closely - on a regular, frequent basis.
I would assume (have no evidence) they do so more frequently than Most atheists meditate?
Those who choose to believe in a wise omniscient God and develop a ‘realationship’ with Him (Like Tam and GG) seem to find a calming satisfaction from that and that it allows them clear ways to see things from a wider perspective tha their everyday world tends to make most obvious to them.
I am not sure that many atheists are easily able to get that same level of benefit?
I am sure that there are a number of christians who can, like some atheists, use their belief to belittle the values others find benefit in.
That in no way justifies a belief that those values are ‘worthless’ or a waste of time.
Matt? if you’re still there?
Please don’t make the common mistake that God has to be like we humans are or thinks like we do.
We are supposed to be more like Him not the other way around!
The first book in the bible say we were created in His image - Male and female created he them - that’s often about as far as many who open a bible ever get into it before figuring out that the bible is ‘not for them’.
Anything worth doing takes a little effort and perseverance.
Being created in His image (male AND female? Him? Hmmm…. - curious?) doesn’t mean we are totally alike any more than a statue is like a man!
Prayer works by allowing your mind to move away from YOUR idea of what is - to God’s!
It is then up to you to take it from there into the ‘real’ world you create!
Faith can work wonders!:-?
Oh - almost forgot!
I wrote about a guy i saw on a video on the web (actually first saw it on the news on TV) in another cyberblog (which shall remain linkless for now).
The Guy was in some latin american country amongst a swarming mass of fellow roman catholics who were in some religious festival and passing a 45 ft statue of Jesus Christ.
He seemed to think Jesus would hear his prayer (to heal his sick son) better if he scaled the statue and spoke his request directly in His Lord’s symbolised ear!
He musta put some kind of thought into this ‘cos he came prepared with a scaling rope to help his ‘ascent’.
It was as he was beginning his ‘descent’ (Oh, the symbolism! - i can’t stand it!) that his religious fervour got the better of him and he fell 40 ft to the concrete below (all captured on some guys portable)
The many fellow believers (none of whom seemed to have considered his acts in any way sacriligious or have been advisable to try and prevent) all assembled around and even helped carry him to the ambulance that was prevented from reaching him by the crush about the statue.
How long his stay in hospital was was not reported in the news clip but he did suffer mumerous broken bones and internal injuries! 8-|
Neither was it reported if the prayer worked and his son got healed? If i had to guess - i’d guess in the negative.
I wonder why he had not read Matthew 6 or chosen to follow it’s good advice or why the many catholics around him did not explain it to him as he was making his intentions clear?
I also wonder why there was a 45ft statue of Jesus in the first place given Exodus 20:4?
Maybe there is something i just don’t get?
I did get a laugh out of it though!
I know - I’m going straight to hell!
@Tiffany
I trust that you ARE smart enough to come up with your own answer to life’s problems.
It would depend on the definition of meditate. How I calm myslef would probably not be called meditation by many people, although it is calming for me. Many times during a day I will stop what I’m doing and reflect on where I am and where I want to be, both for the day and in my life. I think about good things I want to do and bad things to avoid or correct. This keeps me grounded and focused and keeps me from getting caught up in the minutia that can eat up a day.
I wish you would have said “proof TO me of God in me.”
The biggest difference between atheists and theists is who/what gets the credit for things that happen in life.
It shouldn’t be that amazing…we hear about how God is good, so it is natural to try to understand why bad things happen; it’s contrary to the nature of God we’re presented with. I enjoy hearing the reasons/excuses and seeing the shrugged shoulders when Christians try to explain why god DOES allow evil. Someone like you (GG) probably has a better answer with the life you’ve lived and the testimony you can give. Maybe I’ve just been asking the wrong people! :)>-
Why? It wasn’t your experience. :)>-
Stacy, I have never, nor will I ever shrug my shoulders as to why God allows evil. We have had quite a lengthy discussion about it on this site…I’ll try to find it for ya!;)
That’d be great, thank you.
I did sift thru your post about your friend who died and didn’t want to jump in and comment 170 posts later…
HappyNat - I am curious - good job i am not a cat.
What you describe about yourself taking time out. How ‘unique’ or ‘common’ do you feel that to be?
I feel that the way you describe it is very uncommon?
If you are being honest (and i have no reason to daoubt you) then that sounds like a very good ‘way’ to be. One i doubt many humans actually do/are.
I am sure many humans have doubts about what they do and spend time questioning ‘where they are’ and ‘what they are doing’ but your comment did not come across that way.
I was referring to meditation as a very specific concentrated effort to remove the detritus of day to day concerns out of our thinking zone - shutting that zone down entirely for the period of meditation in fact, so as to allow us true ‘insight’ - to transcend our sensorial world concerns.
I don’t think many atheists ever do that either!
)
(and no! probably not a lot of christians would know how to as well
So my kid is sitting on the floor trying to do something. She’s working at it and working at it, without much success.
If she “asks” me (she can’t talk yet so I rely on non-verbal cues) if I can help, I certainly will.
Sometimes I don’t let her know I’m there and just watch her to let her figure it out.
Other times I let her know I’m there but still just watch as she figures it out
If she’s ever in danger I’m on it like white on rice.
God does the same thing - he’s always there whether I realize it or not. Prayer doesn’t always get a “yes.” And no, that doesn’t contradict Jesus’ teachings because people read that verse without the context of the entirety of his other teachings.
So prayer does make a difference. We have not because we asked not. Also, God knows the best way to handle any situation. We just have to ask him.
I’m 30-something, but my parents still love it when I ask their advice on things. Even though God doesn’t need me to come to him, he still enjoys it.