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Hi everyone - Bill kindly invited me to be a guest blogger here and this is my first post.
A bit about me: I’m almost an atheist; I was a Bible-believing Christian for about 17 years. In ‘real life’ I’m a stay-at-home Mom. Online I’m blog manager for Off The Map and I host the blog Conversation at the Edge for them.
Onto my question for today: I’m curious about how differently Christians and atheists (evidently) see the world. The other day Gods Gal was saying she can’t look at the world outside without seeing evidence of God. hoverfrog, writerdd and siamang responded that when they look at the world outside they don’t see God at all. (That conversation is in comments #49-#52 on What If…)
Why do we see things so differently?
- Do you think it’s because you’re open to what’s real, but those who see differently are too biased to see clearly the way you do?
- Do you think you’re smarter than those who see differently from you?
- Do you (if you believe in God) think people can only see evidence of God if he lets them see it - and that’s why some see it and some don’t?
Here’s the tricky part 
See if you can answer these questions without offending those who see differently from you.
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I look at a cloud (lets pick on clouds) and think “that’s pretty, isn’t it amazing how water vapour, heat rising from the earth and the movement of air can end up as something that looks a bit like a face if I squint.” A Christian may see the same cloud and think “It looks like rain.”
Sorry.
Specifically regarding nature I, as an Atheist, see complexity in the formation of a wing or a petal and am amazed by the beauty and wonder in nature. I don’t want to spoil that by giving any god the credit. Nature is enough for me and I’m happy to be a part of it.
Well I am smarter.
OK maybe not smarter, maybe just different. My son is dyslexic and his inability to read well is having a clear detrimental effect on his education but he can look at an extremely complex social problem and ask the most salient questions about it. His understanding is far above that of a typical nine year old but his reading age is far below it. What I’m saying in my usual clumsy, anecdotal way is that by dismissing people who we consider to have missed the point we may actually be missing the point ourselves.
As humans we latch on to answers that serve us well. Fire is hot so don’t try kissing it, etc. If religion helps you to explain the world to yourself then fine. I think that you’re missing out on some of the beauty and wonder of it all. One of the most horrifying realisations that I’ve ever had was when I came to understand that I would never know everything. I don’t have long enough and I’m not smart enough to absorb that much data and to make sense of it. So, like most humans, I get by with an incomplete picture.
Thanks hoverfrog. I’ve heard a number of atheists say that nature inspires awe and wonder in them. It seems to me that atheists who feel that way appreciate nature as much as Christians. I’ve appreciated nature as a Christian and now as an almost atheist.
I don’t think my appreciation was spoiled by giving credit to God - I used to feel just as much wonder. However for me there’s a sense of freedom these days in not feeling like I am being remiss if I don’t turn my feelings of awe and wonder into a thank you prayer to God.
I like how you brought up your son. Thanks for sharing about him. What a great reminder to be open to what we can learn from anyone, including people (or children) we might assume have nothing to teach us.
I think life would get boring if we understood everything; and it would be overwhelming if we felt we had to try to understand it all. I’m curious and like to learn but as you say I’ll never have a complete picture. Such is life
Hoverfrog: As a Christian, I look at clouds and think, awesome!!! and give credit where chredit is due….I don’t have to explain it to appreciate it…unless there are big black clouds and wet stuff coming down, my mind won’t usually turn to thoughts of rain…:-\”
as for today’s hosts questions, yes, no, yes…..
Thanks for your comment, Gods Gal.
I wouldn’t have thought Christians see clouds and always think ‘rain’, speaking for myself. I think that more depends on each person’s disposition, whether they tend to be an optimistic or pessimistic person.
Hmmm…I see my name is not on my post; how weird; I assumed it would be.
Helen, you’re kidding. I learnt more in the first years of being a parent than I think I’ve ever learnt before. You hear about people seeing the world though fresh eyes but kids have the real thing.
Gods Gal, it’s that “credit where credit’s due” thing that I don’t understand. Why not just appreciate the cloud as a cloud rather than a creation of an all powerful creator? A cloud is quite wonderful enough for me. Moreso when they make funny shapes to point out to my children.
HF: learnt? just kidding :d
question…..do you or would you ever want any credit for any of your accomplishments? AND would you want to ever take any credit for the way your children turn out or their accomplishments?
Siamang, writerdd, and Helen, I did answer your statements from the other blog but hit a wrong button…sigh….I will retype in a bit….thanks!
hoverFrog - I agree; being a parent is a huge learning experience.
Gods Gal, sorry about your lost post - I hate when that happens!
I’ve thought a lot about giving God credit and whether I think that matters to him. I don’t think it necessarily does, because if I painted a painting, I wouldn’t insist on people coming and telling ME how wonderful it is. In fact ‘how wonderful it is’ wouldn’t be the issue so much as, did it make them happy to look at it? I think I’d be happy to overhear them saying things about it which implied it had made them happy.
If I feel this way it seems to me that maybe God is happy when people enjoy nature and maybe he doesn’t care if they don’t ‘give him credit’ for it.
I realize I could be wrong - that’s just the conclusion I’ve come to thinking about this issue.
Ahhhh point well taken, I don’t think He so much needs anything, including us…I’m just thankful that He would do that for us, just like when my Mom would bake a batch of my favorite cookies when I was little just to make me smile! I still thanked her for them….mmmmm
Gods Gal, I think it’s very thoughtful of you to say thank you when you know who provided something - I’m glad you do that.
I’m glad you don’t think God needs people to say thank you.
Yes, learnt. That’s how we spell in a civilised (with an “s”) country.
joke.
To answer your question: Yes. I’m proud of my achievements and of those of my children and even those few who have had the misfortune to suffer my tutelage. I’ve even boasted about my achievements when I think them worthy enough. My point is that my achievements can clearly be attributed to me (and my children’s to them even if I helped) whereas I don’t attribute an achievement of a cloud in forming a natural shape to anything other than natural effects. I see your point though. It’s akin to praising a gardener for the shape of his rosebush.
Did you say cookies? mmmm.
An interesting point though. If God doesn’t need anything (and being omnipotent, why would he?) then what does he want? This is one of the many questions that led me away from religion.
Helen, I’d say “none of the above” to your three options. We all see what we expect to see. We all interpret the world through a set of lenses made up of our culture, our experiences, our upbringing, our philosophical assumptions and religious (or non-religious) beliefs. It has nothing to do with one person being smarter than another, or one person being more open to reality than another. It has to do with the set of lenses you’re using.
Or maybe to put it another way, your #1 option is only half-right because we’re all too “biased” to see the other point of view - you, me, all of us - not just one side or the other. It’s not that I’m right and everyone else is wrong (or vice versa), it’s that we’re all inclined to filter reality according to our prior assumptions and presuppositions.
That’s why I appreciate people like you Helen who have tried on both sets of lenses and can often see both sides as it were.
I think we see the world the way we are taught to see it as children. Very few people every break away from that in any major way.
Many Christians lock themselves into a bubble where they only read what they already agree with, therefore there’s no way for them to develop a new worldview. I did this for many, many years. So I had no chance to even evaluate my beliefs, because I had nothing to compare them to.
As an example, sometimes people tell me they don’t believe in evolution, but if I ask them if they’ve read Darwin, they say “no”. So how can they know what they think about Darwin’s ideas if all they’ve read is secondhand information? I’ve read the Bible and I’ve read Darwin, and frankly, what Darwin has to say makes more sense.
I don’t think belief is voluntary. I think when we read information, our brains process it in some way that we don’t yet understand, and poof!, out pops an answer. We either believe it or we don’t. Of course, the answer that pops into each of our minds is based on what we’ve learned in the past, both through personal experience and through book learning, and so forth.
Do you think it’s because you’re open to what’s real, but those who see differently are too biased to see clearly the way you do?
Theists and atheists agree on the things which exist, (trees, stars, aeroplanes, oceans etc), but theists think that nature is just not natural, and so requires supernatural beings.
Atheists tend to think of nature as being natural, and not requiring supernatural beings who can do things by magic.
Do you think you’re smarter than those who see differently from you?
I know I am smarter than almost all other people. This is just a fact. There are some people smarter than me though - Stephen Hawking for example.
Do you (if you believe in God) think people can only see evidence of God if he lets them see it - and that’s why some see it and some don’t?
Not a question for me…..
Hoverfrog: I’ll try to be more civilised….:)
Your achievments would only be attributed to you if people believed you did them in the first place right? You can say anything you want, but prove to me you actually did it…..Ok, short answer to your question, which I’m sure will open major can of worms…but that’s ok too….answer:For you to believe who He says He is…and to trust Him with your life…Ok let the thrashing begin! :d/
@writerdd
I like what you said. I found myself living in my little Christian bubble too. This site (along with other resources) has really opened up my eyes. I love putting my faith to the fire. The way I see it…either I’ll come out stronger in my faith or my eyes will be opened up to something new.
I just want to be real about my faith.
I’ve been reading friendlyathiest and friendlychristian for about a month now and i’ve seen some really good dialogue thus far. i know this article doesn’t specifically target nature, but perhaps it does indirectly. It does discuss why science and nature and God don’t necessarily have to be at war with one another…read below…(i got this article from a blog about a year back and thought it was particularly interesting)
The God-Shaped Hole
Bill, that’s why I still read Christian websites and books even though I’m no longer a believer. Also, I don’t want to forget that other people are usually nice people, regardless of what they believe. When we isolate ourselves, it is too easy to demonize or fear anyone who is different.
hoverFrog: What does God want?
Gods Gal: For you to believe who He says He is…and to trust Him with your life.
The following is just my opinion: what makes sense to me is that God, if he exists, cares more about whether I love my neighbor (in actions) than whether I can say with confidence that I believe in him.
Btw no thrashing is allowed in the comments on my post
Hey all! I have been missing a very good discussion and now I want in!:)>- First of all…Peace y’all!
I love all of you! You all have deep convictions, and are totally cool with honesty, and I love that!
I have tried many different religions, and sadly and happily I must admit that religion totally stinks! and it is all dead ended…way too many rules and too many fakes. I do call myself CHristian, because the real meaning of the word is a follower of Jesus Christ, and I do follow HIS teachings.
I do not think I am smarter than anyone…and I thought learnt was a word! :d
leave religion alone and try relationship..much more satisfying and totally sweet..
Hey God’s gal…I don’t see rain when I look at a cloud, and my glass is always at least half full!
Steven Carr/hoverfrog- the US could use smart guys…ever consider politics? joking;);)
darla (and everyone else who has said this in the various threads recently),
If you believe in any god and/or follow the teachings of a holy book, you ARE being religious , even if you don’t follow an organized religion or belong to a specific church. There are two parts of the meaning of the word:
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
I used to say “I’m not religious, I just love the Lord” and “I’m not religious, I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.” But that IS exactly being religious.
I agree w/you writerdd. Reading differing viewpoints is crucial, no matter what your own beliefs happen to be.
Helen: Thanks for the no thrashing..#:-s
Here’s a thought to what you said. I have run across many many people who expect me to be perfect because I am a Christian. (Talk about stereo-type) to the point where they watch me continually, not recognizing any good thing I’ve done for a week, and then I’ll be in a bad mood, or let a word slip,or do something that they percieve a Christian should not do….and man do the fingers start to point, get called a hypocrit etc. Ok, so the point I’m making with all of this, is that I don’t, and I mean don’t like religion. What I have is a relationship, with the One true living God. I have studied other gods and faiths, but have never found the relationship I have with Him. I have found religion, not relationship. Now I agree both believer and non-believer alike can love their neighbor, OR hate their neighbor…that’s why it is so important to understand what Christ did while He was here and why. It’s not about us, it’s about Him and having a relationship with Him.
Darla girl, you rock!! Your glass is always full!!
“Do you think it’s because you’re open to what’s real, but those who see differently are too biased to see clearly the way you do?”
I just think we start with different assumptions. To tell the truth, I think it all comes down to one phrase: “I could be wrong.”
I really think that small statement goes a long way to explaining the gulf in beliefs. I start with the assumption that my beliefs could be wrong. It’s a useful assumption, as it’s always quite likely that I could be wrong about a lot of things.
Now, of course, I could be wrong in my conclusion, and I could be wrong in making “I could be wrong” a central assumption. The Bible seems not to like “I could be wrong” as a central philosophical tenant, but to me the phrase seems the beginning of all wisdom.
But I think it’s the key to why we see things so differently. I can’t say that I’m right and other people are wrong…. All I can say is that I have a suspicion that I’m frequently wrong… and so I need some evidence to keep me from being phenomenally wrong about invisible, mercurial, wil-o-the-wisp phantoms.
“Do you think you’re smarter than those who see differently from you?”
Some yes, some no. “Smarter” is not a word I’d use, as many different people are smarter in different ways about different subjects. On the other hand, I do think it’s “smart” to be skeptical about what the preacherman is promising when he’s passing out the collection plates. Caveat emptor.
Does the US need smart guys?
You already have Bush.
writerdd mentioned reading Darwin and it got me thinking of how Charles Darwin was labeled an atheist but he himself said he was not. He considered himself at one time more of a theist then at the end of his life settled on agnostic. God has always simply been God. Never wavering. Darwin never claimed to be God I know - but he wavered much throughout his life - he had questions and they were great questions. but I feel many have based their beliefs on Darwins - but even he wasn’t completely sure.
just my own thoughts here - it really got me thinking. I’m not discrediting anyone’s beliefs here. Choose what you choose - just choose wisely.:-?
No thrashing Gods Gal, I was just wondering. To me an omnipotent being, be definition, can have anything and do anything he wants and therefore wants for nothing. The ideas of omnipotence or omniscience to me negate the possibility of an all powerful god. Along with lots of other things.
As the the matter of achievements though I think that I wouldn’t care if you believed me or not. Lets say I’d painted a masterpiece that was on display in a gallery. You were viewing it and along comes a stranger who tells you that the big scruffy bloke with a pony tail over there (that’s me, that it) painted it. You don’t believe him and say so loudly enough for me to hear. I’d say something but if you still didn’t believe me then so what. I’d still know the truth. I see where you’re going with this and you may well have a point but in my example you would have chosen to ignore direct testimony. If the stranger had said that he knew the painter would you be more skeptical? How about if he’d read a book that said that someone local had painted the masterpiece? What if it wasn’t a masterpiece but a piece of modern art that showed the tracks of wild animals. I realise that these hypothetical situations may not be very good but at what point do you turn round to the stranger and say “Sorry, but I don’t believe you.”
Darla, I’m too honest to be a politician and far too English to be an American one….although Arnie isn’t a native is he?
hoverfrog: You’re right, He can have anything He wants, see we agreed!!! That was easy!:d/ The rest of your post tho is coming from the point that I am the non-believer which I am not. I did have a stranger tell me about the painter and I chose to believe. AND you’re right, He still does know the truth…the only difference is, He doesn’t sit back and say so what. He cares and keeps trying..I’m not the one tho who is ignoring direct testimony, and I have read the Book…..I still believe! Wanna go back to the cookies? ;;)
Real?!? No, I don’t have the inside track on reality. There are as many reasons for belief and disbelief as there are people. Everyone has a different mode of operating, some go by their gut and instincts (which is helpful when egghead knowledge :-b doesn’t have much to say) others go by the latest and greatest theories and research (which quite often shows that common sense is completely misleading) and still others want to try to escape the box any way they can - and I respect that.
My thing is logic, but I would say that because of that, it takes me longer to apprehend certain things that are clear to my instinctual wife or father-in-law.
Absolutely not. It’s not about intelligence, it’s about those modes of operation that I mentioned above. I’ve got a lot to learn. I am humbled by how much I don’t know and don’t understand.
Exactly right Siamang! It’s this admission that I find missing from so much debate by both atheists and Christians.
Thanks everyone - I appreciate all your thoughtful responses!
Mike C is right.
We should always dialogue with people whose views we don’t agree with, and engage with their arguments.